Mahara Wayman [00:00:06]:
Welcome to The Art of Badassery, where I explore what it takes to live life on your own terms, break free from the status quo, and unleash your inner badass. Whether you're a rebel at heart or simply seeking inspiration to step outside your comfort zone, this podcast is for you. I'm your host, Howard Wayman, and each week I dive into the stories, insights, and strategies of those who have mastered the art of badassery and are living life to the fullest. They smile when no one is looking.
Mahara Wayman [00:00:47]:
To the art of badassery. I am so thrilled to have you as a guest today. How are you?
Debra White [00:00:54]:
Oh, thank you. I'm so thrilled to be here. I'm excited to be a part of this movement of badassery.
Mahara Wayman [00:01:02]:
You're so funny. It's fun. Isn't it's fun to say, too? I'm going to say what's really interesting is that there's a generation that views the word badass or badassery. Well, badassery is not even a real word, but that view the word badass as a square word, and it just isn't to me. So I'm chit chatting, chit chatting, and I record something and put it on Instagram, and it's completely bleeped out and crazy. And I did something for someone here locally, and they said they literally cringed when I said it. And she goes, I'm not sure you should say that. For a split second, I thought, oh, my God, I didn't mean to offend her. And then I went, Mahara, you're badass. It's not a swear word. Stand up for yourself. And I said, oh, I'm sorry. You don't like it? No, I love that word. It's actually part of my it's part of my stick, my superpower. Lots of fun. So, Deborah, I would love to open this conversation with a little bit of a reminder of who you are and what you do. And first question I'm going to invite you to answer once you've given us a bit of background is why you feel you're badass.
Debra White [00:02:18]:
I love that question. Why I feel I'm badass? Well, I can give you that, and it kind of goes along with what it is that I do for a living. So I feel like I'm badass because I'm not afraid to talk about end of life. I'm not afraid to talk about death, I'm not afraid to talk about dying. I'm not afraid to have the hard conversations around planning your end of life experience.
Mahara Wayman [00:02:45]:
So your actual title is what?
Debra White [00:02:48]:
My actual title is that I'm an end of life educator and doula.
Mahara Wayman [00:02:55]:
Okay, you got to explain that.
Debra White [00:02:57]:
I know. Yes, I know. And really, I mean, it can be a conversation stopper, but the truth of the matter is, the end of life doula education and doula realm is really all about empowering and advocating and supporting and, of course, educating, really, everyone to design their badass end of life experience. It's about participation. It's about participating and planning your own unique end of life experience.
Mahara Wayman [00:03:30]:
How did you get into that?
Debra White [00:03:32]:
How did I get into that? That's such a great question. I got into that after having to make end of life decisions for my husband ten years ago. So I was the decision maker to remove my husband from life support after his brain died. After a heart attack. A few days after his heart attacks, yeah. And so living with the ramifications of those decisions, I have always believed and still believed that I made the right ones. But because we hadn't had those conversations or he hadn't articulated what his wishes were, there is always that feat of doubt, and I live with that. Did I make the right decisions for him?
Mahara Wayman [00:04:10]:
Right. I'm so sorry that you had that experience, but I'm so proud of you for taking that type of a tragedy and turning into your life's work. I'm curious, though, what has the reaction been from friends and family that this is now what you're doing? Because to me, a death doula, it's an interesting term. I've only ever thought of a doula when bringing life into the world.
Debra White [00:04:37]:
That's it. I do often get asked whether or not I find this line of work depressing. And actually, the opposite is true. The opposite is true. And first of all, the best time to do end of life planning is while you're still healthy. So the goal is the best time to plan your will or the best time to make decisions for yourself. And what you'd like to have happen is while you're still healthy. So not every one of my conversations are with people who have serious illnesses or terminal diagnoses. But of course, a great part of what I do is with people who are living on the palliative care spectrum or are living with a terminal diagnosis and are planning their end of life. And it is as sacred as planning for a birth. It's interesting that you bring that up when you're talking about a birth doula, because it's a perfect analogy, because we think about all of the things that happen in preparation for a baby being born. And just imagine if you were diagnosed pregnant. So you received a diagnosis of pregnancy, and then you spent the next nine months trying to prevent it from happening. There's still hope. Have you tried this, have you tried that? And truthfully, what happens when you're diagnosed pregnant is that you spend the next nine months because there is an expectation of how long the trajectory will be that you will have this diagnosis. And most people, it's around 40 weeks. Some people are shorter, some people are longer. But you also know what the expectation is, and you hope for the best, but you also can prepare for the worst. And so that is exactly what end of life planning is. So we may not know what our diagnosis is or what's going to eventually cause the end of our life or cause our death. The reality is, we all know that there will be something. So specifically, for people who do receive a diagnosis, it's important to understand the trajectory and plan for the best case scenario, but also be aware that there are some pitfalls that may come in. So that's where a doula comes in. We help you navigate and personalize and plan for the trajectory. Also taking into concern culture, diversity, gender, it all comes into play. And really, death is an ordinary and natural part. It's what we signed up for when we were born, we signed up for that.
Mahara Wayman [00:07:22]:
I love the way that you explain that, and I want to thank you for doing that, because I can see just in that little explanation, like, wow, we may not want it, we may be ready for it, we may not, but it is coming. And the idea of having someone to hold your hand and to navigate it and to know that what you're feeling is okay and you're also allowed to have other feelings, like whatever it is that you need to have, you've created a space for that. And that's what I love about the coaching world in general, and you and I are both coaches. I'm curious, though, Deborah, what have you learned about yourself as a coach now that you are in this specific business and your clients are quite different from what you may have been used to in the past before you stepped into this role?
Debra White [00:08:15]:
I've learned the same thing about myself as a coach, as I've learned about people, is that we can do hard things. We can do hard things, people. The body knows how to die. The body knows what to do to die. It's our heart and our minds that don't know what to do to die. And me as a doula and as a coach, oftentimes it's about having the courage to show up, to have the tough conversations, which people are thinking about. If they're not asked and invited to share what it is, their deepest fears, or what their beliefs are, or what their values are. If they're not invited to share those, then they may not have a good death. Then they may not. So I'd say that's the biggest thing. People are already thinking about it. And people can do hard things, including die. And me as a coach, to show up for them and have the courage to have some courageous but tender conversations is a skill.
Mahara Wayman [00:09:24]:
Wow. As you were saying that, I couldn't help but see the parallels because I could just as easily say, wow, people want to live. Or if I can show up and have the courage to ask them the tough questions to help them feel their feelings, they can live their life. Yes. Right. Whether the life is another two weeks or another two decades. So I love the parallels that I'm seeing between what it is that we do the results are the same in and amongst a reality that's different. One person passes, one person continues to live. But what we do on that journey.
Debra White [00:10:03]:
Is very similar and validating, Mahara, and validating to the people that it's okay to want what you want. It's okay to have the goals that you have and it's okay to move in the direction of what it is that you desire most. It's really as a coach, what we do is validate. We're curious validators.
Mahara Wayman [00:10:29]:
I want a t shirt that says that.
Debra White [00:10:31]:
Curious, validators.
Mahara Wayman [00:10:33]:
Yes, validators. I can't wait to hear what you say to this one. And by the way, everyone, I've actually known Deborah for about 15 years. She was my coach when I joined a global company and I credit her with teaching me how to ask the tough question.
Debra White [00:10:54]:
Thank you.
Mahara Wayman [00:10:55]:
There was a time when I and I know you'll remember this, Deborah, when I would when I said to you, can you just tell me what I should say next? Because just tell me what I should say. Grace and patience. You just said, oh, Mahara, just trust yourself. So I just want to say thank.
Debra White [00:11:14]:
You because you're welcome.
Mahara Wayman [00:11:16]:
Years ago was the beginning of the career that I'm in today. But I digress. I would love to know if you had to name your superpower, what would it be first?
Debra White [00:11:31]:
Before I name it, I'm going to talk a little bit about how it is a skill that I have honed. It is through practice and mindful learning about it and it is compassionate, empathic listening. So even in your story that you talked about, because I find that often people do get lost in that I don't know what to say next. And truthfully, when somebody says that to me, that is a cue that you have stopped listening. If you're worrying already about what to say next, that's your signal that you've stopped listening. So it's something that I really work on is first having that open and compassion because we're all struggling to some extent with self worth or feelings of lack or anxiety and coming at it with, hey, I got that too. That's the compassion, the understanding that those emotions are all a part of the human experience. And truly listening to what it is that the person who's talking to me is the most important because they're going to let you know what's the most important to them. And you might miss it if you're worrying about what to say next.
Mahara Wayman [00:12:52]:
Oh, my God, that's so powerful. I'm wondering, though, how do you stop yourself? Because I've struggled with this. How do you stop jumping into their story sudden going, oh, my God, I'm so sore. How do you stop yourself from that? Because I think that I can see that could be a challenge. It has been for me.
Debra White [00:13:17]:
Yeah. Sometimes it is about the validation. I have a friend of mine who talked about shish woo therapy. Have you ever heard of that? Shish Woo therapy is just when somebody's telling their story, you go, she.
Mahara Wayman [00:13:36]:
I love it.
Debra White [00:13:37]:
That gives them the space to keep talking. So I really employ shishwu a lot. Shishwu, and somebody's telling a really tough story. Shishwu is appropriate, and it's an invitation to also share more. So instead of worrying about what to say next or what the right question is, sometimes words are too much. Even I'm sorry, because that kind of sets up a dynamic of hierarchy, can be sometimes like, don't feel sorry for me, or, okay, now it's about you because I'm telling you that I'm sorry for you and for your loss or anything like that. But just even like, wow.
Mahara Wayman [00:14:21]:
Just an acknowledgment without adjoining forces, so to speak.
Debra White [00:14:27]:
That's right.
Mahara Wayman [00:14:30]:
I'm sure within your case specifically, you hear some really tough stories.
Debra White [00:14:34]:
I do.
Mahara Wayman [00:14:37]:
What's the most beautiful thing that's ever happened to you in your experience as a death? Doula.
Debra White [00:14:47]:
Gosh, there are so many. There are so many, and I would say the most it's the openness and the gratitude and the relief that I can see on some of my clients faces. I can tell you a story about a gentleman that I've accompanied who was estranged from his family. He hadn't seen his two children in over 30 years, and I was accompanying him on his deathbed and deathbed, but not actively dying. It was the last few weeks of his life, and we really just talked about I talked to him about sending a love letter to his sons prior to passing. And he agreed to write the love letter, but he wanted me to send them after he died, after his passing and through working with him every day, we did get to a point where he thought it was the right decision for him to send before he passed. So I copied them and I emailed his sons since he still knew where they were. And one of them came one of them came the day before he died. And when this gentleman was no longer really actively awake a lot of the time, but when his son walked in, he grabbed him around the neck. The father grabbed his son around the neck and pulled him close and said, I love you, I love you, I love you, and let him go. And the son left shortly thereafter. The father was still alive, but the father died about he died about two, 3 hours later. And the son called me to say, I don't even think he knew who I was. And my response was, gosh, I haven't talked to your dad in four days. He's been mostly sleeping and non communicative, so you coming in. That was the last words and act that he was given. And so I would say that was impactful for me. Right. That was impactful for me. Really showed me that people do know at the end of life. And in the end, all that matters is love. All that stuff that they hadn't seen or done was made okay by those final words of love.
Mahara Wayman [00:17:16]:
What a beautiful story brought to it's. So true. And what I know from the clients that I have is we're all looking for love.
Debra White [00:17:25]:
You're right. Connection and love. Yeah.
Mahara Wayman [00:17:29]:
That we belong, that we matter, that we are able to love, that we can feel love. We can give it, we can receive it. And yet all of the reasons that make us human, that's not always easy.
Debra White [00:17:44]:
Well, yeah. And I think a lot of people look for resolution, right? Having their conflicts resolved. And most times that's not possible because we each have differing views about what is right. But what resolution may not always be possible, but what is possible is bringing your relationship into the most current status. So when I think of that, I think of this gentleman and his son. And their conflict was never resolved, but by the time he passed, their relationship was current. All had been said. So it is really about love. Resolution is not the goal or doesn't have to be.
Mahara Wayman [00:18:27]:
It doesn't have to be. I'm sorry. You have proven yourself to be badass, like, seven times over. Because what I'm seeing is the strength and the courage it takes to face that. Most of us run away from death, and you're running towards it in a way. Right? I'm here. And I think that's really beautiful. I think it's so missing in our culture.
Debra White [00:18:54]:
Death is pretty random, though. Hey. Death is random. And I can say if you even look at this time of COVID where millions and millions of people have died from this horrific virus, and yet when it's your brother, your sister, your mother, it feels personal. So while death is random, when it happens to you, it's personal. And so lots of people are dying of cancer. Lots of people die of heart disease. Lots of people die of there are so many things that people can die of. But when it's your loved one or you, that's when it's hard. And isn't it great to have help with that hard stuff?
Mahara Wayman [00:19:35]:
Yeah, it absolutely is. It's why we do what we do, is recognizing that we all need help. We all need to feel that we belong. And part of what I experience with my clients is my clients already know all the answers. They've just, for the most part, forgotten.
Debra White [00:19:54]:
Or they don't know they have permission to say it.
Mahara Wayman [00:19:57]:
Well, exactly. Yeah. Or they're waiting to be given permission. So what I do is create and I know you do as well, is create this beautiful, safe container where they can be themselves, where they are given permission to go. Well, tell me how you feel. No, don't bottle. I want you to tell me and tell me again, and I'm sorry. Can you tell me again? A little louder because we have feelings for a reason. Right. We're spiritual beings, human existence. And the beauty of a human existence is that you have all of these feelings that can help you to navigate your journey. What happens to so many of us along the way, though, is that we get caught in the feeling, or we attach a value to that feeling that is either dated or just not true. So we are, in one sense of it, our own worst enemies. But when we are willing to be brave and courageous and speak our truth and ask for help, then amazing things can happen. So I know, and I'll share this with the listeners you have been while so instrumental in helping me navigate my mother's journey. My mom is still with us. She's 97 years old, and about a year and a half ago, her dementia became dementia became quite evident, and it was tough because I struggled with feelings of guilt that she wasn't the mom that I needed. In fact, she was. And, man, did I get angry at her. How dare you get old and lose your memory? And then I was angry at myself for even having that thought. And I'm, like, can't tell anybody, can't tell my brothers and sisters. I think that, like, what a terrible daughter. And you so gracious in talking me through and just helping me sort of to understand that my feelings were normal and my mom needed me now in a completely different wow. My mom needs me now in a completely different way than she has before. And that's okay. It's totally okay. So I'm just saying here on air for everyone to know that I thank you, and I don't think I would have navigated it quite as smoothly without your help. So I just want to say thanks for that.
Debra White [00:22:12]:
You're welcome. And you can do tough things, and you are you're doing a great job. I could great job.
Mahara Wayman [00:22:18]:
Oh, my goodness. I feel like I need a fan. So what else would you like to tell the world about what it is that you do? What's? Something you think is going to be a surprise to us about your role?
Debra White [00:22:33]:
Something that I think would be a surprise. I think I said it at the beginning that the best time to plan the end of your life is while you're still healthy.
Mahara Wayman [00:22:41]:
Okay. Speaking of that, those of you that are listening in the show notes, I will have all of Deborah's contact information, because she's right. The best time to plan for either your passing or that of a loved one is now. Not from now, when you're in the throes of an emotional upheaval.
Debra White [00:23:01]:
And I would say also I mean, planning is one thing, but also practicing talking about it so that if and when something does happen, your circle are ready and know how to help and support without having to try to guess so planning is one thing. Having the conversations with your circle is number two.
Mahara Wayman [00:23:32]:
My interest has really peaked. Now, am I hearing you correctly in that you think it's a good idea for us to say to our family at dinner, for example?
Debra White [00:23:43]:
Yes.
Mahara Wayman [00:23:44]:
Hey, guys, just so you know, I've been thinking about what it is that I'd like my end of life to look like. No, I'm not ill. There's nothing wrong with me. Nobody needs to get upset.
Debra White [00:23:54]:
That's right.
Mahara Wayman [00:23:55]:
We've spent years talking about what it is that we want as we go through our life, and this is just another opportunity for that. So are you guys ready? Do you want to hear about how I'm thinking? I'd like things to go yes.
Debra White [00:24:09]:
And, you know, dignity is important to me.
Mahara Wayman [00:24:12]:
Right.
Debra White [00:24:12]:
You know, dignity is important to me. So some of the things that I worry about and that I want to help you make decisions around is if cleanliness is an issue for me, if I'm not able to be kept clean, that that would impact my will to want to live at this juncture as a healthy person. What do you guys think about that? So if I'm laying in a hospital bed and you have to make a decision because I will no longer be able to feed or toilet myself, you have permission to remove the plug.
Mahara Wayman [00:24:42]:
Mom, do we really need to talk about the thing?
Debra White [00:24:45]:
Of course.
Mahara Wayman [00:24:46]:
Right?
Debra White [00:24:46]:
It's just like having the sex talk, right? It's having the sex talk. It's having the finance talk. It's having the death talk. You have my permission to remove the plug. When these things happen, my mind is.
Mahara Wayman [00:24:58]:
Blown how easy you made that seem. And I think the more we talk about anything, the easier it becomes. Right?
Debra White [00:25:08]:
And dignity and burden are really big things. And people, healthy people, specifically struggle around the toileting issue. They struggle around their dignity. They struggle around feeling a burden to others, which would really open up the conversation. I had a conversation with my son, and I've said that same thing to him. I don't want to be a burden to you. And he goes, oh, mom, that's all I want you to be. My house is going to have a place for you. So it was really a unique opportunity. And I will tell you, my other son would be like, no, you're not going to be a burden to me. Your butt will be in the advanced care home. It'll be close to me so I could visit you, but you will not be in my home. So it really was an interesting and open conversation to even have with my own children to know that they had such differing ideas about where and what they would like for me. And my older son was like, mom, you're such a social person. You would love to play bingo down in the room with all of those people that's why I had put you there. And my other son would be like, no, I want you close to me. So it was a good conversation. It was interesting.
Mahara Wayman [00:26:13]:
Good for you. Congratulations on doing that. All joking aside, Deborah, it's so important, the work that you do, and you are absolutely badass for jumping in, listening to the calling that you had, recognizing what your superpower was and then studying upon it. So it really became a superpower and so has been touched by your coaching and just by your friendship, myself included.
Debra White [00:26:40]:
Likewise, Mahara, I value your skill set and your friendship beyond measure.
Mahara Wayman [00:26:49]:
For those of you listening, I am, as I said, going to drop Deborah's contact information in. But, Debbie, can you just say out loud your website or the best way for people to contact you to find out more?
Debra White [00:27:00]:
Of course. So my website and business is called Soulful Departures, so Soulful full with two L's, and the best way to contact me is through my website. I do have some social media presence.
Mahara Wayman [00:27:13]:
Yeah. Wonderful. Well, once again, I want to thank you for joining me in this conversation today. I've loved every second of it, and I know that we're going to get some great feedback from it. So those of you that are listening, we'd love to. If you got any questions or thoughts or comments or feedback on the conversation today with Deborah White, an end of life educator. And doula please do type it out below or send us a message because we'd love to hear from you. My name is Mahara. You've been listening to The Art of Badassery with my special guest, Deborah White. Bye for now.
Mahara Wayman [00:27:53]:
Thank you for tuning in to The Art of Badassery. I hope you enjoyed today's episode and gained valuable insights to help unleash your inner badass. If you found this podcast helpful, please leave a rating or review on your favorite platform. Your feedback not only helps me improve the show, but it also helps others like yourself discover the podcast. Until next time, keep embracing your authenticity and living life on your terms. Here's to you.
Mahara Wayman [00:28:22]:
You now.
