Mahara Wayman [00:00:06]:
Welcome to The Art of Badassery, where I explore what it takes to live life on your own terms, break free from the status quo, and unleash your inner badass. Whether you're a rebel at heart or simply seeking inspiration to step outside your comfort zone, this podcast is for you. I'm your host, Hara Wayman, and each week I dive into the stories, insights and strategies of those who have mastered The Art of Badassery and are living life to the fullest. They smile when no one is looking. Welcome back to another episode of The Art of Badassery. Today, I am thrilled to introduce you to an extraordinary individual whose journey is as inspiring as it is transformative. Meet my guest, Jill McLennan, a fearless soul whose life story is a testament to resilience, self discovery and unwavering determination. Hailing from the vibrant state of New Jersey, jill's life took an unexpected turn when she left home at 18, seeking to carve out her path and escape the confines of her comfort zone. Her unyielding spirit led her all over the United States after she pursued her passion for the culinary arts. Having attended culinary school right after high school graduation, however, life had plans for Jill, and she faced a monumental challenge at the age of 21, an experience that plunged her into an almost two year long period of darkness, a journey she didn't fully comprehend. This experience of suffering prompted profound personal growth, setting in motion a series of transformations that would shape the rest of her life. At 44, Jill stands as a beacon of courage, resilience and wisdom. She returned to her roots, opening a bakery in her hometown and sharing space with her 90 year old grandmother, a heartwarming blend of tradition and innovation. But Jill's journey doesn't stop there. Fueled by her own experiences and a burning desire to redefine how we approach mortality, she's ventured into uncharted territory. The world of death doula services. Jill is fearlessly working to dismantle taboos and reshape perspectives in a culture that often shies away from conversations about death and the inevitable. Beyond her remarkable professional pursuits, jill is a woman of diverse interests and passions. From the soothing art of cross stitch to the meditative practice of gardening, from exploring the mysteries of tarot to the rejuvenating power of yoga, and from the thrill of hiking to the serenity of swimming, jill has discovered the magic of embracing life's simple joys. Recently, she even took up running for goodness sakes. A testament to her ongoing journey of allowing herself to truly relish life in all its splendor. Join us today as we take a deep dive into her incredible voyage. From the shadows of her past to the radiant light she shines today. Her story is really a powerful reminder that no matter the challenges we face, there's always, always an opportunity for growth, for healing, and the audacious pursuit of a life well lived. So grab your headphones, get your favorite drink, and prepare to be inspired by her story that I think epitomizes the art of badassery. Jill, welcome to the show. I'm so honored to have you here.
Jill McClennen [00:03:36]:
Thank you so much for having me. I'm really looking forward to this conversation and that intro, really. It is interesting to hear yourself described by somebody else because I was like, wow, is that really like it sounded beautiful. So thank you. I appreciate that.
Mahara Wayman [00:03:53]:
Jill you're so welcome. And it's so interesting because I'm really learning that in my journey and the work that I do is we don't often realize how beautiful our stories are until someone else tells it. So that's part of the work that I do. So, anyway, I am excited to find out so much more. I know where you've ended up as promoting Death Doula services, and I do have some idea what that means. We are going to get to that peeps, but can we go back to when you were traveling all over the States? What was that all about? Were you just a nomad at heart or were you looking for something in particular?
Jill McClennen [00:04:30]:
That is a great question because really I was running. I grew up in a middle class family, lower middle class, single mom. My dad wasn't really around. I had this idea that leaving New Jersey was going to be what was going to fix everything. That that's what was going to be the answer to all of my problems, which of course, it wasn't. I moved quite a bit. I first started off in Virginia, then I went to Massachusetts and then I went back to Virginia, then I went back to Massachusetts and then I went to New York and then I went to Florida. I mean, I just was all over. And every time I would move, it would be the same thing. I would start off, I'd be excited, I'd make some new friends, and then all the feelings would come back. The feeling like I wasn't good enough. The feelings that I just couldn't figure out how to make life work. And so then I would pick up and I'd move. And of course, doing that a few times, eventually it gets to the point where you start to think, okay, there's something I'm missing and it's not outside of me, so what is it? And I was really fortunate in some ways. That like how they say sometimes the worst things that happen to you are actually the best things that happen. And I guess is it okay if I get into details? I don't know how much detail you want about what happened to me at 21.
Mahara Wayman [00:06:15]:
Well, what I'll say is this. I invite you to be as open as you are comfortable with. You certainly don't have to go into great detail, but I'm going to leave it up to you because this is telling your story your way is empowering. And I know there are people that are listening that are going to be that need to hear your story.
Jill McClennen [00:06:36]:
Yeah, because I am happy to share. I think it's important. It took me many years to even say some of these things out loud, and I won't go into graphic, you know, again. I came from a single parent home, and so I went to the best culinary school in the entire world. I went to the Culinary Institute of America in Hyde Park, New York, which also means that the money that you have to pay to go to that school tends to be a lot. And so I was working three jobs while also going to school full time because I had to pay for school. I had to pay for the things that I needed. And I had gotten a job for a catering company, and I had told my boss that I needed as many hours as he was willing to give me because I needed the money. And so instead of giving me the hours, he gave me a proposition. And he said he would pay me $3,000 to spend one weekend a month with him. And I was young, 21. I had thought about it. I mean, I genuinely did. I was like, that's a lot of money. But I just couldn't do it. It just didn't feel right to me. No judgment. To people that do, genuinely, I have no shame, no judgment. But for me, it felt like it would just eat me up inside, like it was just going to make all those bad feelings even worse. And so when I told him no, he drugged me and raped me. And I really was, like, in denial at first as to what happened, partially because in some ways, it's a blessing that I don't remember most of it. And so it really took me quite a few years to, again, even say out loud what had actually happened, but I held it all inside. Like, I just was angry. I remember a couple of days after it even happened, sitting in class and just being really mad because I couldn't stop thinking about it. I couldn't focus. I couldn't pay attention. And I was like, this man ruined my life over his selfish desires. It ruined my life because now I can't think and I can't focus. And that happened Memorial Day weekend. That next January, I went on my internship for the CIA, and I was so excited, I picked a place in Florida. It was, like, the Breakers Resort in Palm Beach. It's, like, the place to go. And it was an 18 week internship. 15 weeks into it, I got into a fight at a bar with a coworker. And the only reason that I did not get expelled from the college was because that morning, I had gone to my boss and I said, look, they're really pushing my buttons. They mess with everybody. First off, it was three people. It was two guys and one girl. And I just knew I felt it building inside me. And I was like, if they walk behind me and push me one more time, I'm going to snap. I felt it in my body just, like, wanting to come out and looking for that excuse to come out. And that same night, I was at the bar, and one of the guys came up to me, and I was talking to another guy. I was single at the time because I had trauma from men. And at that point, I was like, I want nothing to do with them. But I still wanted to have a partner. And so I was, like, talking to a guy, and the other person that I was having some issues with kind of was like, oh, don't talk to her like she's a lion bitch kind of thing. And I was like, excuse me. I was like, if you have something to say, say it to me. And we kind of went back and forth, and then he said, all right, well, let's go outside. And I said, you're going to take a woman outside? And I was like, what kind of pussy are you? Basically? And that's technically why I got fired, for using foul language. He got fired for threatening me. And the female in the group got fired because she ran behind me and shoved me. And it was like something just took over. There was no thought. I could not control myself in that moment. It was like all this rage just came out of me. And I'm tiny. I'm only five four in, like, 110 pounds, but I just exploded. And as soon as it was done, I sobbed. The same guy that I was talking to, he was like, Are you okay? And I was like, no. I was like, I just ruined my life. I was like, that's it. I'm done. And I did get fired. And I fell into a really deep depression. Like, I couldn't get out of bed. I eventually found a new internship, so I had to start all over again. And I really do feel like the universe drops things in your path that lead you to where you need to be. And in some ways, I really feel like that fight honestly was needed. Because even that night I went to the bar, and I wasn't drinking. And I don't know why not. I just didn't feel like drinking that night. So I was actually totally sober at that moment. And I kept seeing this yoga center that was down the street from where I lived advertised. Like, I saw a flyer for it. And I grabbed one of those little tickets that has the phone number. And then I went into the car dealership to get my car service. So this is back in 2001, so they had computer set ups you could get on the Internet. And I sat down and I opened this computer screen, and there's that yoga center. And I'm like, oh, weird, that's that same yoga center. And so I had started working at a new job, and I was cleaning my room one day because again, I was like, I need to do something. It was my day off. I didn't want to get out of bed. And I thought, I have to do something. And I was cleaning up, and this number fell out of, like, a book. And I was like, you know what? I'm just going to call him. And so I called, and the owner answered the phone, and he said, we have a class tonight. We're going to do yoga, and then we do meditation right afterwards. And he was like, I really think you should come. And he's like, have you ever done yoga before? And I was like, I don't know, like, one class in high school, but had never done meditation. I'd never really done yoga. And I went, and it was just me, him, and his wife. Nobody else showed up. So we do this class, and then he says, and now we're going to meditate for an hour. And I was like, oh, okay. And I had to try to sit still for an hour, having never meditated. And I am not the type of person that sits still. Like, I am very fidgety. I'm always moving. Which I've learned later on is a trauma response. It's our body trying to get these things out. So I've never sat still, and I had to sit still for an hour. And then they started chanting in Hindi. And I was like, what did I get myself into? But he just looked at me at the end of it and he said, I want to see you tomorrow morning. And I was like, oh, okay. And he was like, really? He's like, I want to see you at my class tomorrow morning. And I went back the next day. And I went every day for the next five months, basically until I finished my second internship. And within a couple of classes, he said to me, I want you to take my yoga teacher training. And I was like, I've not really done yoga before. And he was like, you naturally are really good at it. And then that's when I started learning about past lives. He was like, you were probably just a yogi and a past life, and it just comes to you. And I was like, I have no idea what this guy's talking about. But there was one day in my teacher training when I had said to him how much I moved. And he looked at me and he said, did you ever think that what you're running away from you can't escape because it's inside you? And I was like, oh, shit. No, actually, I'd never thought of that.
Mahara Wayman [00:15:25]:
Thanks for pointing that out. Now what?
Jill McClennen [00:15:27]:
Yeah, well, exactly. And then it's like the now what? But it honestly saved my life. It changed my life. I was not the same person after him saying that to me. I was not the same person after my yoga teacher training. And I graduated my yoga teacher training right at the same time my internship was finishing up. Like, the timing was perfect. And at graduation, I cried and I told him, I said, you saved my life. I would even thinking about it, I wouldn't be here today if it wasn't for him. And if it wasn't honestly and if it wasn't for that fight, I wouldn't have found him. I wouldn't have gotten that experience because I would have finished up my internship and gone back to school and just potentially, honestly ended my life. I was just that deep in pain and I didn't know what to do with it. And I was young and I didn't want to talk to people about it. I felt ashamed. I felt stupid. How could I have been so dumb to let him do this to me? I mean, there just was so much that I could not express and get out. And then I got back to school and my first day of school was September 11, like the September 11. And so I am walking back from my first class and somebody runs by me and says, yo, an airplane just hit the World Trade Center. And I was like, wait, what? And we weren't that far in New York. Like, far enough that it wasn't going to affect us. But I definitely was like, oh, what is you know, then I ended up my husband. Now, he was my best friend when we were in college and even when I was living in Florida, he was living in San Francisco. We used to talk on the you know, he would say to me all the time, why don't you have a boyfriend? And I was like, because I don't want one. I had already learned by 21 that I really just would rather be alone than to deal with a lot of the things that I had dealt with. And then especially after what my boss did to me, I was like, no. And my husband asked me, why are you such a man hater? And I said, I don't hate men. I just hate what they're allowed to get away with. And there's a difference.
Mahara Wayman [00:17:53]:
Mic drop.
Jill McClennen [00:17:54]:
Okay, right?
Mahara Wayman [00:17:55]:
Huge mic drop. Jill, before you go on with your story, I want to say thank you for sharing and being so vulnerable with your experiences. And I am so curious though, what you mentioned. And I think this was very astute of you, that you weren't running to something, you were running away. But what was it that you were able to dig out of yourself that allowed you to pick yourself up, brush off, put your jacket back on and go, you know what? This you you're not going to define me. And you're not going to take away my spirit because I think so many of us, whether it's that type of trauma or something else, so many of us don't pick ourselves back up. So what was it that you found in you that allowed you to do that?
Jill McClennen [00:18:47]:
At the time, I don't think I knew what it was, but there was just this fire within me that I knew that I could change the world. And not on the grand scale, but by starting small and then radiating out. Right. And that even when I was a child, I would go places with my grandmother and especially, I'm not surprised I ended up as a death doula. They had a veteran's home very close to where she lived. And so we would go and she would say, we're going to go with the old people, even though some of them were younger than her. And we would go and we would take them to Mass. My grandmother was very Catholic and she would always say to me, I would walk into the room and I would go up to the people that everybody else was avoiding, that they smelled bad and they looked bad, and I would just go up to them and I'd hold their hand and I would just be with them. And I felt like my mom always said to me, I always took in all the strays, even in high school, all through college, where I just gravitated towards the people that I think need love the most. And I feel like there was always this part of me inside that knew that that was my purpose. I didn't know how I was going to fulfill it. And I couldn't let anybody else stop me from doing really what I was put here to do by God or the universe or whatever you want to call it. Right. I feel like I had this purpose in life and I was not going to let anybody stop me, even though there was really times when I was close to just not giving up, because that's not really the right word. I was just tired. I was just tired of meeting people that were so careless about their actions and how it was hurting others and seeing so much pain and suffering in the world and not being able to fix it. And even now, I still struggle sometimes with that, of hearing things and seeing things and just being like, I don't know what to do, I can't fix it. And then that's when I go back to reminding myself the only thing I could do is start with myself and those closest to me and then let that radiate out that if I can make the promise to myself that I will do everything possible to not hurt others. I know I'm not perfect, that there's times when we're all going to hurt somebody else, but I can try my best to just spread love to people, not pain, not suffering. And that by doing that, it'll radiate out. And that was just always in me. And I just kept, I think, turning back to that, even though I didn't know what it was, there was part of me that just kept going back to that. You'll figure it out. And then finding those little breadcrumbs along the way to lead me down that path and just trusting them. But it's not always easy. I mean, life is not easy, but I'm determined.
Mahara Wayman [00:22:21]:
You are so determined, and I love that. And I'm just going to take a sip of water.
Jill McClennen [00:22:24]:
Of course. Yeah.
Mahara Wayman [00:22:30]:
There's so much great wisdom in what you're saying. So as a reminder, I actually believe same I have the same beliefs. We are spiritual beings having a human existence, and that in itself brings up lots of challenges. I actually just read a book. Well, I listened to the audiobook and it blew my mind. It's called Journey of Souls.
Jill McClennen [00:22:54]:
Oh, my gosh. I just pulled that off my bookshelf last night. See, that's what I mean about those breadcrumbs. I've had that book for many years. I hadn't reread it in a while. For whatever reason, it popped into my head. I had to search four bookshelves until I finally found it, and I pulled it off last night and I was reading through it last night. I love when that happens.
Mahara Wayman [00:23:18]:
I listened to this book last about two weekends ago, and I'm very intuitive and I'm very inquisitive, and I just thought it was brilliant. So for those of you that have not read it or heard of it, it's written by a his first name is Michael. I can't think of his last name. I'm thinking Andrew.
Jill McClennen [00:23:34]:
Yeah, I don't remember either.
Mahara Wayman [00:23:36]:
But he's a therapist that uses Hypnotherapy. He takes his patients into a past life, so he does past life regression work to help them overcome challenges in their current life. And I've done past life regression. It's super interesting. But what happened one day was his client wasn't in one life or the next. His client was in as the soul was sort of in between incarnations. And therapist was like, what OMG? Like, what the hell? What do you mean? Where are you? And this began his introspection and his work with clients on the soul's journey. What does the soul go through between incarnations? It's fascinating, but one thing that happened to me as I'm listening to this book is I was listening intently. I think I'm actually on holiday with my family, and the dogs are kind of barking and whatever. I'm not really paying attention to them. But he asked a question of the client who was talking about their soul's teacher in that moment and the color energy that that particular teacher had. And the author said, so what color would this particular teacher be? And I answered and I said, oh, it's Deep Purple. Of course, and then the book said, oh, it's Deep Purple. And I went see, I know this. And I don't just know this because it's a wild guess. I know this. I know this. And my life has not been the same since that admission or understanding that. I know that there's more than just this. And I know that I put a lot of thought into choosing this body, this person, these challenges, this face, all of that. It wasn't just me. It was a group of us. For my benefit and my soul's growth, I chose this life. And that has had a profound effect on how I look at everything. And the biggest thing that it's done for me, it's taken away the fear. And I know those of you listening and you mentioned it at the beginning of this conversation, this idea that there's something that was just there was always something that was bothering. And sometimes we know I had a shitty experience and that I've grown up afraid of this or that. Sometimes we don't know what the fear is. But as human beings, most of us really look for this idea of security. I want to feel loved, I want to feel connected, I want to feel safe and I want to feel worthy. But after this car trip two weeks ago where I had this AHA, understanding, I sort of like, well, of course I'm all of those things. Oh my God. I am a spiritual being, having a human existence. And I have people on this plane supporting me and loving me and liking me and being friends with me. And I have people on that plane that love me, like me, support me. So it was kind of profound. So I love that you found that book. Again, we're going to have to connect in a few weeks when you finished reading it, and I would love to get your views on it. But it was really beautiful. It was really beautiful. I think I got a little sidetracked love that you have been able to look back on these incidences and these challenges as an opportunity for growth. Because really, I know that for many people out there that would have been that's know, I'm done with that, I'm done with life. I have spoken to people that have contemplated taking their it really a lot of thought was put into it. I have a dear friend who lives in British Columbia. And in British Columbia we have made medically assisted death for people that are dying and have a disease or something that's going to take away their quality of life. So that conversation has started, but it is definitely awe inspiring that you have been able to go, okay, but I'm here for something more. So let's take us back to this realization that there was more you had to do in this world other than maybe just being an amazing culinary artist.
Jill McClennen [00:27:55]:
Yeah, so I did move to California first and my then boyfriend who had been my best friend, we moved to California. And while we were out there, I would talk to my grandmother every I just I would call her every single day. She basically raised know and single mom. My mom was always working, so I was with grandma all the time, so we were just very close. And then after my husband and I got married, we really wanted to open a bakery together. We had talked about that again even before we were dating. We were best friends and we were both pastry chefs, so we're going to school to be pastry chefs. So we were like, one day we should open a bakery together. And my grandma said, well, why don't you move home and live with me and you can live with me for free because that'll keep me in my house. My grandfather built her that house when they got married in, I believe, 19, like 37 or something, like a long time ago. She'd lived in the house for 70 years at that point. So that's what we did. We moved back home to new Jersey, which got to love my husband, he's not from new Jersey. And I was like, guess where we're going to go. We're going to move to south Jersey. And we moved there and almost I want to say a week after we moved there, my grandma was like, I found this weird lump in my chest, but not her breast, but up above it. And so we were like, well, that's weird. We'll take you to the doctor. And the doctor said, oh, it's probably not cancer because that's like a weird place. That's not usually where cancer forms, but we're going to do a biopsy just to be sure. And he did the biopsy and he said, actually it is cancer. It's a very rare cancer. Don't usually see it in people her age. We actually usually see it in teenage boys. And she's a 90 year old woman, so where this came from we don't know. And that started this journey of navigating cancer treatments with her and then navigating the end of her life. And when I had had our first child, he was six months old when we actually got to the point where they finally said it had been four years of trying to treat and extend her life a little bit. And they said, it's time. We can't do anything else. We're going to send her home on hospice. And I thought, okay, cool. And they said, who takes care of her or who's going to be the main caregiver? And I said, well, I live with her, so it's fine. I'll be there. And I'm thinking, okay, grandma's going to come home. She's going to just probably be herself and then maybe sleep a little bit more, but then she'll die and it's fine. We could handle this. And the first night she was. Home, something just changed. It was like when they said to her, we're going to send her home on hospice. And then even the nun that she was very close with had visited her in the hospital that same night. And so when Sister Tarcia came to the house, like two or three days after my grandma was home, we talked about, said, you know, your grandmother told me she was ready, that it was time, and she was ready. And I think at that moment, when she basically got okay with God that it was the end, part of her already left, part of her soul was gone. Because that first night that I was home with her and I came downstairs because I could hear she was up. And again, I'm like, nursing a six month old baby because they'd nurse constantly at that point. And so she looks at me and she says, oh, my granddaughter has a baby the same age as yours. And I said, well, no, I am your granddaughter. And she's like, no, you're not. You're the nurse that's just here to take care of me. And I was like, what did I get myself into? And of course, it's 02:00 in the morning and it's dark and I'm tired. And then she starts talking about the people that are there with us. And I was like, oh, wow. What is happening? And so as soon as the hospice nurses showed up, I was like, all right, can you please explain to me what is going on? And just right away, they were like, okay, this is normal. This is natural. She's in that space. And the people that she's seeing, maybe they're dead relatives, maybe they're angels, but this happens a lot. And if she doesn't recognize you, it's something called sundowner syndrome. It happens a lot. They just were so amazing and so wonderful, and it just felt like something inside of me was like, this is it. This is it. This is what you've been trying to find. You just didn't know it yet. But I had a six month old and I had a bakery, and I had my husband who also ran the bakery with me. So after my grandmother died, she was on hospice really only about a month. And they were amazing. And even at that point, I was talking to the hospice nurses, and I was like, I don't know, I might want to go back to school to do this. This is amazing what you do. And I had this seed that had been planted in me that it felt like the seed was there, but it had been watered at that point where it was, like, starting to grow. And life moved on. We ended up having to close our bakery. I found out I was pregnant with our second child after my grandmother died. And we had bills for the house. My husband had to get a job. It was not destined yeah, exactly. Life happens. It was just not destined for us anymore. So we closed the bakery. We moved so we would be closer to my husband's job. I started working for a nonprofit in a city right outside of where I live that I had been volunteering there to teach, because they have a job training program, and a lot of the people that they train you have to be unemployed or underemployed. A lot are coming out of the prison system, or we're homeless, or we're addicted to drugs. And again, even that felt like that was my purpose. People have asked me before, what's your favorite thing to bake? And I'm like nothing. I actually don't like baking. And they're like, but you're a pastry chef. And I'm like I know. I love to teach it. I love to decorate the cakes, but I don't really love baking. But it just felt like when I found this career of teaching people, it wasn't about the baking. It was about changing their life, giving them the tools to help them change their life, and learning to not be attached to the outcome. Because we did have students die. They would die from drug overdoses. They would die from gunshotings. Gunshots. And that's really a hard lesson to learn when you want to help people, to learn that you can't help everybody. But yet the people that were able to take the tools and change their life, I still am in touch with them. I talked to somebody this morning. She graduated seven years ago from the program that I taught, and she needed help. And so I'm still there, but I know that she's on this path, and it's not because of me. It's not like it's me doing it again. I'm just planting the seeds. I'm giving them the knowledge. I'm giving them the love and the support. When you come from a situation where you were addicted to drugs or you were in prison or you were homeless, there's so much shame that comes with that, and there's so much blame between their families and society. And I just show up with love, and I'm like, you know what? I love you anyway, no matter what you did. And I've talked to people that have killed people before, and I'm like, you know what? That is your past. If you have moved on, if you have healed, if you found your peace with God over this, and you have literally paid more time than you probably even needed to through society putting you in prison and the terrible situation that some of these people are in, I still love you no matter what. I learned so much about unconditional love from that, and I didn't even want to call it a job. It wasn't a job. And that's why it's weird. Yeah. People will sometimes say to me, well, why did you leave the place that you were working? I said, I know. It's really weird. To leave a job that you love and to make this shift. But again, it just got to the point where I was like, this isn't where I'm supposed to be anymore. There's something else that I'm supposed to do.
Mahara Wayman [00:36:50]:
So what I'm hearing is that all along, you have been very in tune with somatically what you're feeling in your body, what you're feeling emotionally. And I think that's part of the challenge of learning to be badass or being authentic is just not automatically making assumptions. Because like you said earlier, at this point, the bakery just wasn't viable. It wasn't the dream. It wasn't for us anymore. So we made the choice to shut it down. I think a lot of us, women especially, get caught up in this trap of, I said I was going to do it, therefore I'm sticking it out. Oh, yeah, I said, I'm going to marry this guy, so I'm going to stick it out.
Jill McClennen [00:37:33]:
That's exactly what I was just going to say. Before I met my husband, I was engaged, quote, unquote, to somebody, and I ended it because I was like, this isn't right. This isn't right. My entire body was saying it, and I saw my stepmother not too long afterwards, and with that tone that people have, well, you said you were going to marry him. Yeah, you're right. I did. And then I changed my mind, and I didn't marry him. And thank God I didn't marry him. And that's where I ended that relationship with him. And then started at the CIA, the Culinary Institute of America, and I met my now husband on our first day of school. And we start school weird, where they start school every couple of weeks. So I started school in know, it's not like a normal, like, you go to school in the fall kind of thing. We start school every three weeks. And so I met my husband on the first day of school. I wasn't supposed to start that day. I was supposed to start months earlier. But again, I'm trying to work and put myself through college. And so I know that all these different things along the way, when my body is telling me that this isn't right anymore, if I listen to that, then I always end up where I need to be, even if it is hard, even if it is painful. Sometimes those voices in your head and outside of your head of saying, like, well, you said you were going to do this, you need to do it, they're annoying. Sometimes you just need to be like, you know what? It's just not right anymore. And that's okay for things to not be right anymore. But yeah, thank God I didn't marry that guy. God, that would have been terrible, and we would have ended up divorced anyway. But that's exactly what happened to me. But you said you were going to marry him. Yeah, and you are not going to shame me into feeling bad about my decision.
Mahara Wayman [00:39:36]:
Good for you. You are badass. Oh, my gosh. Okay, so fast forward. You've closed down the bakery. You have two children. You're teaching a beautiful program to help people that have been challenged either in the prison system or homeless, learn a skill of baking. And are you still doing that?
Jill McClennen [00:39:59]:
So I do it part time. It's one of those things where so rewind a little bit from me teaching. Now, I heard of a death doula in 2019 on a podcast, and as soon as I heard it again, there was that moment of like, this is it. This is it. And I was still scared because, again, at that point, I was 40 years old. I had two kids. I was working two full time jobs. Not two full time jobs, but two jobs that were very demanding of my time and my energy. I was teaching for a university as well. Life was very busy, but I was like, this is the thing that I've been waiting for. And I decided to start my training in January of 2020. It took me a couple of months to really work up the nerve to research it, even. But I was like, no, this is it. I'm going to do it. And I started my training, and I thought, well, it's going to take me probably many years because I'm so busy. And then, of course, we all know what happened in March of 2020. So suddenly I had all this time. I was able to complete the programs that I was in. I actually did two different programs. I had my website up. I mean, I was ready to go by August of 2020. And then I started back full time teaching in September. And again, the world was still crazy at that point, so there was only so much emotional energy I had because we're a soup kitchen and we feed all the halfway houses and shelters as well in this city. We had so much going on, not just the teaching. I was cooking. I was unloading trucks, I was doing deliveries. I mean, I was all over the place. And after doing that for about a year, I finally had said to my bosses, I need time. I can't do both this and my business. And I wanted to be part time, and we just weren't really making it happen. And so then finally I was like, I'm giving my notice, and I'm going to give you six months so that we can find my replacement and we can make sure. Because again, I love the program so much. I love my students so much. I love the organization. I was like, I'm not going to leave you stuck. And they couldn't really get a good replacement. The people kept quitting and not working out. And so I just kept coming back part time here and there. And then eventually it got to the point where now I teach one specific class. It's a class called ServeSafe. It teaches food service workers how to not make you sick. Right? So it's about how to wash your hands and how to wash and sanitize equipment and how to cook properly. Right. It's like a really important class. And I teach that three times a year for two weeks because we have to teach it. And then it's like a national test. It's like a big deal. And so it's amazing, because now I've figured out a way to still be there, to still teach the students, to still connect with the students, to still be a part of this organization that I love so much, but also in a time frame that allows me to still build my business. Because it is hard. No matter what the way that the world is today, we have to interact with people online. We have to sell our services online. And there's so much noise online now, so sometimes I feel like I just put this content out and then I started a podcast as well, and I talked to really amazing people, and I'm putting all this stuff out into the world, but yet people are still really afraid to talk about death and dying. And so I find there is a lot of resistance to the work that we do, even though it's so needed. All of us are going to die, I think.
Mahara Wayman [00:43:57]:
I've had this conversation with my friend who's a doula, and I find it fascinating that we automatically assume that doulas death, doulas are only here to help the dead, the the dying die. But I truly think that you're here to help the living live. Yes, because part of the beauty of life is recognizing that there is death and not being afraid of it. And it's just so interesting. And it's very sad that we, for the most part in Western civilization, don't talk about it. We shy away from it. We're afraid of it. We don't understand it. Because there are cultures that are the complete opposite. There are take the elderly in that celebrate their dying, celebrate their death, recognize that it is a part of life, and they're never really gone. They're just on a different plane that we can't see. But most of us in the Western world don't know anything about that or we just my personal experience is I know about it, but I didn't really think about it. Yeah, that's your culture. That's not my culture. Whatever. I know we're going to die, but I just don't want to think about it. I'm actually navigating my mom, who's 97 years old and has dementia, and she is the best mom ever. I wrote a book. My first book that I wrote talks about her quite a bit. And it's amazing what I've learned about myself and my judgments around the elderly and dying. And I don't know if I'm going to offend people by saying this, but I waver between the and I've even said to her, oh, my God, mom, why are you still here? Explain to me. I understand that you're a soul and you're here for a reason, but what? And she's like, Good fucking question. Well, she didn't swear. I swear. But she doesn't like, good question. But then I would think feel badly for feeling that way. But I even said to my husband recently that's no kind of a life. It only remembers five minutes at a time. And if she phones me sometimes, it's like, Mahara, are we in Canada? Like, she's lost the last 50 years, and she thinks that she should be in Jamaica, but she looks out the window and doesn't see palm trees. I'm learning how to navigate that. So I'm curious, what have you discovered as being one of the biggest reasons that people shy away from this conversation?
Jill McClennen [00:46:24]:
I think, honestly, the biggest reason is because we avoid it so much, even since people are children, that when we do experience losses, when we do experience the death of a loved one or even a pet, right? That because our family and our friends avoid talking to us, avoid allowing us to express they don't express themselves. We hold so much grief inside that then when anybody mentions death or dying, it pokes that grief that we're holding in there, and it hurts. And then that scares us. We contract, and we're like, no, if I just avoid this conversation, I won't hurt anymore. I won't feel that pain. But then the more that we avoid that conversation, the more fear builds up inside us. And so then when we do have to face the death of a loved one, it can be traumatic, but it's not necessarily that. It's the death itself that it's traumatic. It's that all the old stuff is coming up and all the old fears, and then we're butting up against all the other people around and their fears, and then things get said. And if we could start with our children, talking to them openly and honestly, if we could allow children to experience that death is natural, it's a natural part of our life cycle, then as they age, as they become the adults, it's a lot easier for us to have the conversations and to face it when it does happen. And honestly, our medical system now is not helping this situation any. Why did my grandmother get all of these cancer treatments at 90 years old? She had some really serious side effects, but we didn't know any better. We didn't know any different. They didn't tell us there was any other options. And so we just kept going along with what the doctor said. I don't know. She probably still would have lived four years. It's not like it was that much longer that it extended her life. But she was really in pain at the end. She was really suffering at the end because of a lot of it was the side effects of the treatments that they were giving her. And my mom even just said the other day, I feel really guilty that we put Grandma through all of that. And I said, well, first off, we didn't put Grandma through anything. She did make those decisions all along the way. We would have supported her, whatever she decided. But there is that guilt and those feelings of, again, regret and pain and all these things that a lot of people now, what they would do is be like, well, that situation is over. I'm going to shove it down, and I'm just going to pretend it's not there. So then when they have to face it again, it's all coming up again. Yeah. And really, if we could talk about it now, if we could be more honest, and even for me, doing my training as a death ruler, I was never afraid of dying. Like, even as a child, I was always fascinated with death. I was never afraid of it until I had children. I honestly was always like, if I died tomorrow, I wouldn't care. And it was the truth. Until I had kids, that really was the truth. I was not wanting to die, but I was like, if I died tomorrow, whatever, I don't really care. But still doing my training and reading about death and dying so much and talking about it and learning about it, there was little pockets of things that were creeping up. And mainly it was my fears about something happening to my children. But rather than shoving them down, I had to face them. I had to look at them, I had to express them, I had to move my body to get them out or journal about it or cry. There was stories that I would read about people's children dying, and I would just sob. And my husband's like, Are you okay? And I'm like, yes, I'm fine. But avoiding those stories, avoiding those realities, is not going to protect me or my children from that happening. Any more than that, it's going to attract it, because we also have that feeling as well. Well, if I think about my death, if I think about my husband dying, if I think about my children dying, it's going to make it happen. No, that's not true either. None of these things are true. Avoiding it isn't going to prevent it from happening any more than thinking about it is going to make it happen. But what it did for me was allowed me to get my priorities straight about what was important to me in life, and it allowed me to appreciate every moment in a way that I was not able to before. Because parenting is hard, right? Children, they're a bit much sometimes, but there are so many moments now when I am so much calmer and so much more present with my husband and my children because I know that this is not going to be here one day. Either I'm going to die or they're going to die. We're not going to be here to have these experiences. And when I'm on my deathbed, am I going to think to myself, you know what? I didn't respond to that email that somebody sent me? Or am I going to think I didn't play that game that my daughter wanted to play because I was too busy responding to emails? And it's a hard thing to face when you really look at how out of balance your priorities are in life. And it's not our fault. It's the way that society has essentially programmed us into functioning in the world. But it gets to a point where once we know that that's what's happening, then we have the power to change it. And I have changed the way that I live my life so much where it's still summertime here for me. My kids are still out of school, and there are emails that are sitting in my box. But you know what? My daughter wanted to do something before we got on this call, so I did it. I still said, hey, I have this one thing I have scheduled. After this, my son and I are going to go running. We're still figuring this whole thing out. It's still new, but we're going to go running together. And that's where even like me picking up running, I hated running. I never wanted to run. But he signed up for cross country. And I kept saying to him, you should really start running. You should start running. You should start running. And he'd, uh huh. And then finally one day I was like, you know what, Jill, you should start running with like, if you do it with him. And I say to him along the like, I'm not good at running. This is really hard for me. I'm getting out of breath. I have to keep stopping. And part of why I hated running was because when I was a kid, somebody said to me, you run like a girl and made fun of me, like, running and flailing their arms, right? And so that was still inside of me, 40 something years old, still worrying about what somebody said to me when I was probably eight. But you know what? I go to the park now and I run. And I don't care if people are looking at me and my son and I connect and we talk and we sit on a bench and we watch the ducks. And that's the stuff that is so important. And that's why the way that you said it, it's not even that death duel is. I mean, yes, part of our mission, part of our job, part of why we're doing this work is to help people die better. But I do think a big part of it is for us to help people live better by working with their fears and their anxieties. And then once we can work with them a little bit and let them go, we live life better. We do. It will naturally start to happen if we can face some of those fears and anxieties. But we've all avoided it forever, right? Literally, our entire lives we have.
Mahara Wayman [00:55:13]:
And so much goodness in what you're saying. And of course, I draw parallels to death doula to coaching, because what I do as a coach is I help people understand their story, change the story, put the story in perspective so that they can live a more authentic life. And to your point, when we hold up the mirror and remind ourselves that we are going to die and we ask ourselves, what do I want more of in my life? Knowing that my life is finite. When we give ourselves permission to sit quietly, hang with the kids, eat the ice cream that's my kryptonite is ice cream, eat the ice cream, try something new, put down the computer and laugh, read a book, all of these things that are innately human but can bring us joy. When we do that, then I think the fear of death lessens because we're not afraid to die, because we've had a great life, we've lived life fully to the fullest. My thing is being badass. We've been authentic. We've learned from our challenges. We've cried when we want to. We've shown love. We've been a part of a community and we've made a difference in the world. And by the way, I never had a chance to say it, but kudos for your ability to be judgment free within the program and helping those that have made mistakes feel better about themselves. I do a lot of work. I listen to Gabby Bernstein a lot, her meditations and her teachings. And one of the things that she said that I've loved, it made a difference for me was just try to look at everything through the lens of love. When you give yourself permission to look at your life or your experience or the thing that's pissing you off the most through the lens of love, you'll be amazed at how it actually is different. And I think this idea of being without judgment and very present is a really beautiful thing to aspire to and to learn from and to try to do. So thank you so much. It sounds like you have, all the way through your life, made the courageous choice to listen to what's going on, stand up for yourself and what you believe in and doggedly keep going, which I think is really beautiful. And that's the epitome of being a badass. And of course, that's what the conversation is all about. Folks that are listening, I am going to include in the show notes all of the ways that you can connect with Jill and explore with her one on one, how she can support you or your loved ones. If you're going through this or if you just want to chat, because I'm telling you, she's a great conversationalist, and I think she's that. There's some really beautiful things that you've brought up here. As we sign off, what is the one thing that you haven't yet done in your life? You've done lots, but is there anything that has been tickling the back of your brain going, OOH, I want to try that? I'm just curious.
Jill McClennen [00:58:18]:
I know. I'm like I don't think at this point there's anything that's like a real burning. Like, I really want to try that thing. I'm sure there's going to be things that I'm going to find throughout my life, and I really do try my best to just when those things happen, to just figure out how to make it happen. When I find something that I'm like, I really want to try this thing. Not attached to the outcome, though, either. Some things are just not meant for us. I would love to sing better than I do, but I don't. Maybe in my next life, but now when things do present themselves, if I really want to experience it, if I really want to have that thing in my life, it's usually not a physical thing. It's usually more of an experience. I figure out how to make it happen.
Mahara Wayman [00:59:20]:
Okay. Out of the words, the words out of the mouth of a real badass people. I hope you've enjoyed this conversation. Jill, I want to thank you so much. I've loved having you on the program, and I look forward to doing this again. Those of you that are new to The Art of Badassery, please, if you enjoyed this episode, consider sharing it with a friend. The more the merrier. Have a great day, and I'll see you next week.
Jill McClennen [00:59:42]:
Thank you so much for having me.
Mahara Wayman [00:59:49]:
Thank you for tuning in to The Art of Badassery. I hope you enjoyed today's episode and gained valuable insights to help unleash your inner badass. If you found this podcast helpful, please leave a rating or review on your favorite platform. Your feedback not only helps me improve the show, but it also helps others like yourself discover the podcast. Until next time, keep embracing your authenticity and living life on your terms. Here's to you, our.
