Mahara Wayman [00:00:06]:
Welcome to The Art of Badassery, where I explore what it takes to live life on your own terms, break free from the status quo, and unleash your inner badass. Whether you're a rebel at heart or simply seeking inspiration to step outside your comfort zone, this podcast is for you. I'm your host. Howara Wehman and each week I dive into the stories, insights and strategies of those who have mastered the art of badassery and are living life to the fullest. They smile when no one is looking. Get ready to be inspired, because today's guest on The Art of Badassery podcast is Afshin Ismail Way, a remarkable individual whose life's journey is a testament to the power of embracing diversity and pursuing one's dreams. Born in Pakistan and raised in Saudi Arabia, during the Afsheen's upbringing was a unique blend of international schooling with a diverse student body against a relatively restrictive local culture. Now, this fusion of experiences left an indelible mark on her perspective, teaching her that diverse worlds can coexist harmoniously, a lesson that continues to shape her views today. AV Sheen aspired to a corporate career early, inspired by a female lead character in the movie The Secrets of My Success. Now, despite having no familial role models in this field, she diligently embarked on this path. Her mother's achievement as a black belt in karate added another layer to her understanding of life's vast possibilities. Currently living in Switzerland, she has traversed seven countries across Europe, Asia and North America over the past 25 years. She is the driving force behind a successful six figure leadership development company that partners with leaders and leadership teams in sectors such as pharma, FMCG and beverages. But her journey isn't just about business. It's also about embracing wellbeing and life's joys. She finds solace and inspiration in long walks in nature, the discipline of kickboxing, the passion for flamenco dancing, the tranquility of yoga, and the power of meditation. You are going to love this woman, I'm telling you. In this episode, we delve into her incredible life story, her insights on leadership, and her profound connection with diversity and well being. So join us as we explore the art of pursuing dreams, breaking barriers, and embracing the full spectrum of human experience. In other words, the art of badassery. Fsheen, welcome to the show. I couldn't be happier to have you here.
Afsheen Ismail-Wey [00:02:56]:
Yay, and I'm delighted to be here. Thanks for having me.
Mahara Wayman [00:03:00]:
You are so welcome. When I read your bio, I kept huh?
Afsheen Ismail-Wey [00:03:05]:
What?
Mahara Wayman [00:03:06]:
That's super cool. I'm Jamaican and I was raised in Canada. Can you tell us a bit about your upbringing? Because I mentioned it in the bio but how did it feel to have those types of influences at such a young age?
Afsheen Ismail-Wey [00:03:28]:
To me it was all that I knew, right? So it wasn't as though I had anything to compare it to. This was my reality and so how it felt was familiar and rich and I've carried that with me ever since because, yeah, it just felt like everything could coexist and it didn't create any dissonance in my mind. And I think I've always been influenced by that and it's always been part of how, I guess, how I experience life or how I show up in the world. So yeah, that's how it was growing up in that context.
Mahara Wayman [00:04:22]:
What I find so fascinating, though, and I love that you had that. That was your answer. That's beautiful. Of course, that's the way it should be because that's what, you know was there a time, however, when you started to travel, when you went, Wait a second, not everybody lives like this. Not everybody thinks like this.
Afsheen Ismail-Wey [00:04:40]:
Again, I'd say no. And the reason I would say that is because I'll start with a really real example for me. So my best friends growing up were so diverse. So one of my best friends was Egyptian American. One of my best friends was Turkish. One of my best friends was from Singapore. And then there was me. And we all lived our lives differently. We had a variety of ways in which we engaged with the world, and yet what we shared between the four of us was a common appreciation for each other and I must say, our values as well. So one of us, in fact, some of us were covered. We chose to do hijab. Some of us chose not to do hijab. Some of us chose to have a different kind of social life and others had a different kind of social life that we had enough in common between the four of us that we always gravitated towards each other. And so we grew up with a massive appreciation for each other's, individual differences and as well, feeling very safe and very connected and having a deep sense of belonging between us because we shared really our values with each other. So going back to your question, did it then surprise me when I went and I lived in several other countries? My answer is it didn't because I was not expecting anything else. I was expecting people to be different and to have different ways of living, different choices, different manifestations of how they wanted to be in the world, different rules even to live by. And for me, it really became about in Rome, do as the Romans do. It created a really deep respect for what other cultures felt true and valuable to themselves. And that, I think, allowed me to kind of show up and just enjoy the journey of learning rather than being in a space of this doesn't make sense to me, or Why is it this way? It was much more what can I learn from this that I would like to incorporate into my own way of being in the world?
Mahara Wayman [00:07:42]:
Can I admit that I have never heard anybody say that to me? And that was really very beautiful. Because what I heard was whether by accident or design, you were raised in what sounds almost like nirvana in the sense that very much community, very much we are one and full of respect for each other. And you've taken that with you as an adult, obviously, and because that's what you expect. That is what you are experiencing, which I think is really beautiful, because unlike many others in the world, we may, and I'm one of them. I was raised in great parents, upper middle class family in Jamaica. Black father, white mother. And I actually began to experience racism in my own country. I didn't understand it, but I began to experience it. I could witness it as a little girl and there were things about that experience that I took with me as a young adult and I manifested or I witnessed other things that built on it. So I came from a place of little bit of fear, a little bit of discord, a little bit of mistrust based on how I was treated from a young age. But what I'm hearing from you is the complete opposite. You are experiencing almost the best of humans, the best of travel and culture and diversity because you were raised in a way that it was familiar and you just had a beautiful attitude towards it.
Afsheen Ismail-Wey [00:09:19]:
I would add that sure, it's attitude, but also that I was incredibly lucky that I was quite insulated in those early days of being raised, like you said, very Nirvana like reality where our lives were centered around home and school and school and home and occasionally, of course, visiting with friends and things like that, but so well insulated. And that is the experience of the expat and certainly was in the expat in the Middle East, which was that we lived sort of in a microcosm within a bigger ecosystem and so we were able to feel very secure. And of course our differences brought us together because we were all experts, right? If you look back into how some of the Middle Eastern countries were able to develop themselves to where they are now, it was as a result of having tax free salaries for expats who were willing to give up. Their lives in their home countries where they wouldn't make enough of an income and move to these countries to earn a fair income and be able to send that back home, to then be able to retire back home. So as a result of that, what happened for the children who came along on that journey was that they were raised in this quite secure, quite insulated ecosystem. And we were all gravitating towards one another because we didn't have our own country people there. We only had each other. And there was literally one of each of us, one of each country in a class. That was literally how it was if you ended up in an international school. So I do think that I was also very lucky in that I did not experience the bias or racism until quite a bit later on in my life. And I don't think I began to recognize it as such until even farther on in my life.
Mahara Wayman [00:12:09]:
I can see that, and that makes perfect sense. And I think you're right, you are lucky. I'm curious, though, when you started in your corporate world, in the corporate world, can you share with us how your upbringing really supported you in that?
Afsheen Ismail-Wey [00:12:28]:
Yeah, I think again, I really had no role models when I sort of pursued this corporate adventure. I started with, like I said, I watched The Secret of my Success at 14, and it was this movie with Michael J. Fox and the female lead, who I don't even remember. And at the time in Saudi Arabia, these movies were censored to such a degree that you really only caught glimpses of the movie itself. But somehow it left such a strong impression on me and I thought to myself, that's who I'm going to be one day. And ironically, several years down the line, I kind of remembered that and realized, oh, that's who I've become. With jokes aside, I think my upbringing and how it sort of showed up in my corporate life, one I can honestly say is there are so many impressions, it's really very hard for me to assimilate them into one instance. I grew up with a mother who's a black belt in karate, as you know. And so one of the things I never doubted was that women can be strong. I never doubted that. Right. I knew that that even in an environment where I was witness to women dressing differently, for example, when we used to go to school, we were required to wear a hijab. There was no option. If you wanted to enter the school gates and leave the school gates, you had to be fully covered because that was part of the local regulations. So I knew that there were things in which the requirement for how we were supposed to behave was out of our choice. But at the same time, I knew that I had this role model at home who was very much in choice in certain parts of her life. And so that was really important for me. Being able to be a strong female, that wasn't a difficult thing to be. And then being able to bring a context where diversity and an appreciation for a variety of people, I think actually led me to my career in human resources, because that's really where I had access to so many different people who had so many different gifts and so many different talents, and I was able to be part of their journeys. And that's what I love. So there were so many elements of growing up that then became part of how my corporate life manifested itself.
Mahara Wayman [00:15:24]:
Yes.
Afsheen Ismail-Wey [00:15:25]:
I wonder if I answered your question.
Mahara Wayman [00:15:28]:
You did. And I am not surprised that you ended up in HR because, yes, you were raised with an understanding that people are different, we have different needs, and especially in the corporate world. I think that's one of the challenges. With HR today is recognizing and being open to and I could be wrong, but recognizing and being open to not only do we have different cultures, but humans in general. We have different needs and different ways of communicating and different levels of understanding of ourselves. Emotional intelligence, not everybody has it right. You may have the degree but not be able to communicate with your peers. You just don't know how to talk to them. So I think the skills that you bring from your upbringing make perfect sense in the corporate world. I'm curious, how long were you in the corporate world before you made that decision? And we're going to get to that decision in a bit. Sure.
Afsheen Ismail-Wey [00:16:24]:
So I was in the corporate world from when I was 22 until I was 40, so I would say now 1818 years. And then at 40 I had sort of a life changing moment that sort of set me on the path that I'm on now. And amhara I was going to go back to one of the other things that I think really influenced from my upbringing into what I brought into corporate was in the end I ended up living and working in my corporate roles across in Pakistan. So a lot of my travel experiences were a result of me working with organizations and me being required to take on roles in a variety of geographies. That's really how it happened. But I think the reason it worked so well and the reason I felt at home wherever I ended up going so it started in the US and then it moved back to Pakistan for a period of time and I was then sent off to Sri Lanka for second with KPMG. So I did that for a while and then on coming back I was headhunted and I had moved to Dubai and then in my time with craft foods or Mondelese, I was with them in Dubai, in Austria and in Switzerland and then finally in Dubai again. So that path and the reason it worked so well for me and the reason I feel like I was able to show up in a space that was different every time in cultures that were different every time in contexts that were different every time and still be able to contribute effectively and was because of this deep appreciation for and really comfort with different kinds of people. To me this was always so exciting and it was almost as though I was able to replicate what I felt as I was growing up in each and every one of those experiences because the unfamiliar was what was familiar and beloved to me. I wanted to know about how are things done in this country or this group of people? And that was really, as I look at it now, as I think back about it now, that was really a way for me to continue that story in my life.
Mahara Wayman [00:19:10]:
I'm so excited for you. And it makes me want to just jump on a plane because I used to travel quite a bit with my work as well. But what I'm hearing and what I think is so important for our listeners to understand is all along the way, with your upbringing, what I'm hearing anyway, is that you were offered choices because you saw the end result of those choices. You saw a myriad. It's like going to a market and seeing all these different fruits and being told it's okay that you can taste.
Afsheen Ismail-Wey [00:19:41]:
All of these fruits.
Mahara Wayman [00:19:42]:
Like, this is what's available. This is what our life is like. So you are given choices. I can eat this one. I can talk to this person. I can ask, I can be a part of, I can exchange views, I can learn, grow, love, laugh, play with all these different people and know that it's okay. It's good.
Afsheen Ismail-Wey [00:20:03]:
Yes. And I think that there's such an immense gratitude in that and there's also a lot of work that goes into it. And I think, as I as I was saying to you earlier, as I progressed in my journey, I began to realize that while I was always ready for the circus that I was part of or that I was sort of embracing in my life to date, I've lived in 14 different houses. So you can imagine to me, it was always very exciting. It was always very exciting. And at the same time, as I continued on that journey, I began to notice things, right? That's when I began to notice that I might have to work a little bit harder than everybody else in order to get that opportunity, or I might have to prove myself for a little bit longer than others in order to have a chance at something that would be my wish, my desire, my hope. I think that I took it, and I still take it as a given that I just have to I know that that feels unjust and I have moments when I think, why do I have to work harder at getting the same opportunities? Or why do I have to so many things in order to that others may not have to do in order for me to get to where I want to get to? And so that journey has been something that is something I became aware of slowly and steadily as I exited my very safe environment that I grew up in. And there are so many small examples of that. There are small examples. There are some more overt examples as well. But I really do in the end, I think I just by the time I realized what had been happening. I had also accepted that I'd always have to work a little bit harder than lost and it's become part of the way I operate in the world.
Mahara Wayman [00:22:54]:
What a beautiful realization. Because first of all, I want to thank you for sharing, because that was a very eloquent way of saying my eyes opened and I realized that my upbringing was not necessarily equal. Equal is not the right word. Well, basically you said it yourself. You began to realize that you actually, despite having all of these amazing qualifications, what's the word I'm looking for? Outlook on life and all of this, there was still a bit of something that just didn't feel so good right? There's still a little bit of twinge of, oh, did they just say that or did that just happen or what? And that's something that many people, especially women, face very overtly on a regular basis. But I really appreciate that you were able to the way that you shared it with us, very honest, was that the beginning of your thinking, there's more, I need more than the corporate?
Afsheen Ismail-Wey [00:23:58]:
Actually, it wasn't the beginning of my thinking that I needed more in corporate. I think that that calling in me to be an active part of a contributor in the wait, let me try again. I think that I became more aware of the requirement of me to be a more active contributor in the space of diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging a little bit later after I came out of corporate. And I think that that's where I was meant to go. But I didn't know that when I left corporate. When I left corporate, I still had to some degree been in. Corporate is like that. Corporate is a little bit like an ivory tower. Anyway, so you have your confirmed salaries, you have these clear career paths, more or less. Of course, as I said earlier, there are all of these nuances of inequality that you sense in terms of how you're experiencing your corporate life versus somebody else's corporate life. However, I don't think that I was I know actually, I know that that was not the reason I left corporate, because I left corporate at the ripold age of 40 when my husband fell sick. I hope he doesn't mind me telling this story, but I had been traveling and on the road for three weeks in that month, and I had a friend call me up and say they couldn't find my husband because my husband, who I met at my previous corporate, was very well connected with my social circle. So somebody called me up and said, we can't find your husband, where is he? And I said, I have no idea, because I've been on the road for so many and that was exactly the reason why I didn't want to settle down or pursue this entrepreneurial journey, because I was still on my crazy adventure that was where my life started. My life started in trying to meet other people and be in different cultures. So I was still on that path at 40 when I discovered that we couldn't find my husband. And when we did find him, it turns out he was in the hospital and he was having surgery. So he was in the operating room and I didn't know anything about it. And so I caught the first flight out. Despite the fact that I was meeting my new team for the first time, I caught the first flight out. I headed back and I arrived to the hospital with my suitcases and they were rolling him out of the operating room. And I was walking by him and he was semiconscious. And I said, Why didn't you tell me what was happening? And he said to me, and this will stay inside me for the rest of my life. He said, I know how important your career is to you. And everything stopped in that moment because it was really my number one. I spent the next 13 weeks reflecting on what was really important to me at this stage in my life. And I realized I was very close to having let go of the dream I've always had, which is to be an entrepreneur. I've always had that dream. And I think so many HR people dream of striking it out on their own. And I just thought, I'm going to do this. This is it. I know how important my dreams are to me. And then I also knew that because I had taken a 13 hours flight to get back to him. So I'd had in those 13 hours, had an opportunity to think about, am I going to lose him? It turns out he had a very minor surgery. It was nothing as serious as I had engineered in my head, but in that moment when you're facing that, you realize that your family is probably the most important thing in the world and there really is nothing else. And I had not wanted to become a mother and I had not wanted to settle down into sort of a family routine and none of that until that moment. And I had not wanted to pursue my secret dream. And then I suddenly did. And so I did. And that was seven years ago.
Mahara Wayman [00:29:16]:
What was it that finally opened your eyes that you could allow yourself to go after your dream? Was it the fear of losing your family or was it just a recognition or was it I mean, has the universe been giving you signs for the last 20 years and you just finally noticed the sign?
Afsheen Ismail-Wey [00:29:35]:
I think that I realized that if I wanted more from my life, I would have to go for it. And while it was very delicious and very sexy to continue to live the life that I had lived, that I had aspired to from when I was 14 years old and watching the movie and being surrounded by new and diverse experiences. While this was that moment when my paradigm shift and I realized I wasn't 14 anymore and I'd done it, I'd done it, I got that. And I think I saw it as a it was it was just suddenly I it was I was clear on what my next iteration would be and then it was a really simple decision and it was really hard for everybody else to come to terms with that because it was like, you're doing great here. This is awesome. I come from a culture where being in corporate and having a job like that is like the definition of success. And the definition of success is not necessarily going out and becoming an entrepreneur and just going off that path. And so I know that there was a lot of disbelief. And I remember somebody I met last year who was a part of my family, and I'm not going to name names who said, what you do anyway? I thought you're not working. And this was last year because entrepreneurship is actually not considered a job in my culture, it seems. And I think now I'm slowly helping people get over their bias for what I pursue and what is my career right now.
Mahara Wayman [00:31:54]:
So let's talk about what you pursue and what your career is right now. Because obviously some people say come to Jesus moment, but basically you're like, oh, wow, okay. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but it's almost like I've done it. I don't have to prove anything to anybody anymore. I said I would do it, I'm doing it, and it's great, but I'm allowing myself to step up because what I heard was you saw the light and you're like, okay, you know what? I'm giving myself permission to fail and be okay with it, because that's what entrepreneurship seems to be like for many of us.
Afsheen Ismail-Wey [00:32:30]:
It's interesting you say that, actually. I thought to myself, I'm giving myself permission to succeed differently. I never thought of failure.
Mahara Wayman [00:32:39]:
But I think that is so interesting because words are powerful and those are the words that I chose. So I love that you called me out on it and that wasn't in your repertoire. So that's beautiful. Yay for you. But let's talk about what you do now.
Afsheen Ismail-Wey [00:32:53]:
Yeah, so I run a leadership development company and really what I do is work with leaders and leadership teams to be more conscious in the way they lead. And I think to keep it really simple. What I'd really love to see leaders in leadership teams achieve is a level of maturity in which they're not just looking at this is the prescribed organization culture, or these are the prescribed organization values, and these are sort of the ethical dictates of this organization that I work in, but rather they simply look within at their humanity and they tap into that and they say to themselves, I'm going to do the right thing. And what's that? And that's my only hope for the work that I do with my clients.
Mahara Wayman [00:33:56]:
This is a big question and I know we don't have a lot of time to go into it, but if you can, what do you think has been the biggest reason why up until now leaders have struggled to do that? Is it just the culture of the corporate world that we've allowed? Is it a patriarchal manifestation that I shouldn't have said that word?
Afsheen Ismail-Wey [00:34:21]:
There are so many things I don't know where to begin. You know what?
Mahara Wayman [00:34:28]:
You don't have to answer. But for those of you that are listening, ask yourself what you think the answer is. Because what we're doing right now, this is important work, this conversation, this is important. And I'm going to challenge all of the listeners to have this type of conversation with your family, with your coworkers, and just talk about it, because I think you may be surprised at the answers that you hear or the discussion that comes out of it. The only way that we're going to change is if we have the guts to look at ourselves as a company, as a wife, a lover, a friend, a mother, a cousin, a coworker. We have to be brave enough to say, hey, what can I do better and how am I contributing to the goodness and how am I contributing to the challenges? That's all I'm going to say on that because we've only got a couple of minutes left. But does that resonate with you so deeply?
Afsheen Ismail-Wey [00:35:27]:
I can't even I have so much bubling up inside me right now and I think my only hope for the world right now is to challenge our very limited perspective of what leadership is. It has been defined by very few, mainly non diverse people in the world. And I think that it's really the time now to expand our definition of what leadership looks like, behaves like and does. And I think that then when we become more inclusive in our definition of leadership, it might actually become easier to be more humane as leaders and also do the right.
Mahara Wayman [00:36:21]:
Amen. Paul Order so you coach and you coach teams globally wherever they're so I.
Afsheen Ismail-Wey [00:36:32]:
Coach global teams and I coach regional leadership teams as well, and also individuals. So I coach global leaders, regional leaders, so on and so forth, one on one.
Mahara Wayman [00:36:48]:
So beautiful, so needed. I heard on another podcast, I was chatting with a guest and they explained people talk about keeping your life separate from your work, but that's just BS because everything is intertwined. So I love that you are focused on making a difference in the workplace, in the corporate world because it does trickle down to our family life. And if we are going to make a change in the world, then we have. To actually take action on it. Those of you listening, don't worry. Check the show notes. All of the ways that you can connect with my beautiful guest will be there. And she also has a podcast that she hasn't had a chance to talk about, so I suspect we're going to have her back. I know that you are going to agree with me that there's more to talk about. AV sheen, I cannot thank you enough. You are a badass, and I love and appreciate all that you're doing to make a difference in the world.
Afsheen Ismail-Wey [00:37:44]:
Oh, thank you so much, Mahara. And I feel likewise about you and the work that you're doing to make a difference in the world. And I think if we all raise our voices and make it a crescendo, we can affect some change. And, yeah, let's keep doing that.
Mahara Wayman [00:38:03]:
It's a plan. It's a plan. Thank you all for joining me today and my beautiful guest, Afsheen.
Afsheen Ismail-Wey [00:38:08]:
We'll see you soon. Thank you for the opportunity.
Mahara Wayman [00:38:11]:
Thanks. My pleasure. Thank you for tuning in to The Art of Badassery. I hope you enjoyed today's episode and gained valuable insights to help unleash your inner badass. If you found this podcast helpful, please leave a rating or review on your favorite platform. Your feedback not only helps me improve the show, but it also helps others like yourself discover the podcast. Until next time, keep embracing your authenticity and living life on your terms. Here's to you, Ram.
