Mahara Wayman [00:00:05]:
Welcome to the art of badassery where I explore what it takes to live life on your own terms. Break free from the status quo and unleash your inner badass. Whether you're a rebel at heart or simply seeking inspiration to step outside your comfort zone, this podcast is for you. I'm your host, Mahara Wayman. And each week, I dive into the stories, insights, and strategies of those who've mastered the art of badassery and are living life to the fullest. They smile when no one is lucky. Welcome to the Art of Badassery podcast. I'm your host, Mahara Wayman.
Mahara Wayman [00:00:45]:
And today, we have Hailey Salas, who hails from Wanam, a tiny hamlet in Northern Alberta. Growing up on a farm, Hailey's childhood was filled with nature, curiosity, and a bit of the unusual, thanks to her mom's openness to the metaphysical. Haley is a mom of 3, having had her first child at 19, which propelled her into adulthood and led her to seek new experiences. Her life has been marked by a rich tapestry of love, challenges, and resilience, including a complex marriage and a deep connection to music and storytelling. Her work in inner city communities and her certification in the end of life care inspired her commitment to addressing grief and loss. For the past 3 years, she's helped lead the network solace, fostering community care and creative practices for those that are dealing with loss. So join us today as we do a deep dive on her incredible journey and her unique approach to life's challenges with grace and, of course, a touch of badassery. Haley, welcome to the podcast.
Mahara Wayman [00:01:47]:
I couldn't be more excited to have you.
Hayley Sallis [00:01:50]:
Thank you so much for having me under a chance meeting at a really cool spot last month, and so I'm really feeling honored that you asked me to join you today. So thanks.
Mahara Wayman [00:02:00]:
You are welcome. And, you know, when I meet people, of course, I'm very inquisitive. I'm always asking questions. But what struck me when we first met amid the noise of this massive networking event was just how passionate you spoke about your work. Yeah. So can you give us a little bit of background on what led you to where you are today?
Hayley Sallis [00:02:24]:
Yeah. I worked in the inner city for quite some time, but also, like, the last 24 or 5 years in kind of the human human services space. And, grief was something that just seemed like a daily experience and not really having spaciousness to explore it ever because it is, so chaotic and so many things going on. And people's basic needs kind of take precedence all the time. You're constantly just like chasing your tail, trying to make sure that people are safe and we forget a little bit about our existential needs and, like, even our own. And so what I found over the years, I would try to carve in moments with my, colleagues or even with community to be able to spend, like, real time with somebody, and it felt better. I went home feeling better. And I think it marked those moments for the people that I was sharing it with as well.
Hayley Sallis [00:03:35]:
Right? And I've seen that my relationships shifted a lot of time when I spent time with people, not trying to perform, but, like, just being with somebody in those moments. And so amongst all the chaos I am learning, I've had the opportunity to do this prototype, for Solas. And it's been, like, it's something that I really cherish. And I can say that for a lot of people that come from the space that I come from, it's something that we don't get to do. And, yeah, it's been beautiful.
Mahara Wayman [00:04:15]:
Thank you. And we're gonna do a deep dive on on what that looks like for you on a daily basis. But going back to this idea of understanding that grief always comes with chaos, Why do you think as a society we are so reluctant to embrace the chaos?
Hayley Sallis [00:04:32]:
I believe that we are and oftentimes, we're kind of in survive survival mode, first of all. And so pausing for something that feels so complicated, it's easy to mask it and get through our days. And I actually appreciate chaos. I actually, like, seek out chaos. My work in the inner city, it is chaos, and that's something that I actually enjoy. I like coming home to the silence and the peace, but I love being in the muck of chaos. And that was for good reason. And I think it's probably just trauma.
Hayley Sallis [00:05:11]:
Right? It's something that we're used to. And so we find it in other ways to be able to, like, feed the feed that need, but also know the value and the importance of the peace and, calmness that we need. Right? And so I just picked a career that was gonna allow me for maybe me me not creating the chaos, the chaos is being created around me, and then I can go home and be my own peace. And so I think that as a society, we witnessing or companioning that kind of space, feels awkward. We feel like we have to fix it. We have to fix the chaos. We want that. And so I actually don't really know what it is.
Hayley Sallis [00:05:59]:
I I I think it's a symptom of, fragmented social fabric and that people just feel alone in the world.
Mahara Wayman [00:06:10]:
To your point, we we have never been given permission, I don't think, to allow ourselves to feel uncomfortable. We've been taught from day 1, the minute you feel uncomfortable, you got it's you've gotta be fixed. Don't let the baby cry. Oh my god. You know, don't feel bad about the breakup. He's a jerk or she's a jerk. Right? Mhmm. Don't feel bad.
Mahara Wayman [00:06:33]:
You have nothing to feel badly about. So Glaze over. Right? We glaze over everything because we just don't know how to navigate it. But I'm curious. When you were talking, I had a vision of you, you know, sitting with with your clients or perhaps in a group. How long does it take others to react to your stillness? Because to your point, we want to be an action to fix. And if and if being comfortable with the chaos requires us to be still with the chaos, I'm curious how other people react to to that in you.
Hayley Sallis [00:07:05]:
Well, I was a fixer. I used to call myself what was that show? There was the show she was the fixer. She depressed she fixed the president's everything. I don't know. There was always something horrible. And so I when I worked in the inner city, considered myself a fixer. Someone could come in my office, and I could literally resolve everything and ignore the chaos that was going on in their spirit, and it didn't feel good. And I remember being checked by people.
Hayley Sallis [00:07:32]:
Would you just listen? Like, I have something to say, and I was like, listen, we don't have time. I have 4 people standing outside my door. Everybody has the same fucking thing gonna come in here and I need to fix it. So I don't have the time to listen. And I realized that I actually didn't get to be able to, like, fully see that person and being myself because that's not who I am. Right? But this is like the world is so fast. And so doing solo, it's about unlearning this this idea that someone needs to perform in my space and that I need to do something. So the key is about reciprocity.
Hayley Sallis [00:08:11]:
Right? Being able to exchange moments with each other without any type of agenda. And so being with someone feels a lot different now than it used to And we need people like that in the world. We still need the fixers. Like, we need people like me that can literally get her done. But if we don't have the people that can sit with somebody and be with them in their sorrow, in their pain, then that's then we leave people so broken and myself too. Right? Like, what I get out of that relationship is, like, it's so mutual. I get cared for just as much. It is not one-sided.
Hayley Sallis [00:08:58]:
And so that's what I've learned is that, we've forgotten how to companion people through their experiences and without being this idea that we have to in some way glaze over or minimize or say there there's something better in the future. You know what? Here's your shit sandwich. Here's your shit soup. How would you like it? Like, sometimes there's nothing better. Right? And your choices are both shit. And that's okay. But, like, sometimes we just need someone to listen and we don't actually want someone to fix. Like, so many times I just wish someone would just hear me in my rage and not give me the way out of my rage.
Hayley Sallis [00:09:39]:
I just wanted to be in it. Right? And those are the types of friendships we need, and that's the type of neighbors we need sometimes or mothers or whomever.
Mahara Wayman [00:09:49]:
So big, big learning for you. I'm curious, though. When you go when you go back to your your childhood growing up on a farm with your Yeah. So that was, I don't know, a little bit metaphysical, a little woo woo maybe. Can you think back does it make sense to you today that you are where you're at based on where you came from?
Hayley Sallis [00:10:08]:
No question. I mean, I was going to be a hairdresser, and I'm still pissed off about it, but it's fine. I've accepted, right, that I'm not in the beauty industry. But I also know that Solas really feels like home to me. And the reason it feels like home is because when you're from a really small community like Wanam, everybody has roles. They're unpaid roles. They are roles that come from our own soul and spirit desires. Right? And so when you come from spaces where there isn't actually systems running it, we don't have a gas station.
Hayley Sallis [00:10:44]:
We don't you know what I mean? You don't have like, there's not like, it's like, you know when you're, like, struggling and you're like, oh, yeah. I've been really upset. You know? My husband is such a fucking asshole or whatever. They're like, oh, you should I I know this therapist. Right? We always professionalize care. We don't actually look at the nuances of our community around us that actually might it's like, oh, I actually know this lady Jane who went through something really similar. I'm sure she would sit with you and maybe talk to you. Right? Sometimes we just need that.
Hayley Sallis [00:11:15]:
And so Wanam was like this space where there was unpaid roles but they were, they were fixed. So when someone died, you knew that this the the women to call to cook. You knew the woman to call when you needed, someone to look after your kids. You knew the person to call when you needed your driveway cleaned out. Right? These were the roles. They were all just based on what people's desires were. And so that's what solace really is, is about learning about who's in our community, what do they what is something that they want to give back, and what are they wanting to get in receive. Right? And it and it's usually not monetary.
Hayley Sallis [00:11:58]:
It's usually relational and, around learning and growing and self expression, joy. Right? So, yeah, I would say I'm it's there's no surprise I'm here.
Mahara Wayman [00:12:10]:
So it sounds like and correct me if I'm wrong, but the picture I got was a desire slash determination to bring back the tapestry of small world community Mhmm. In a metropolitan city.
Hayley Sallis [00:12:31]:
Yeah. I don't know my neighbors, and I don't know if there's a desire for them to know me, and that feels weird. And being in, my my kids are, family is from Jamaica, and my partner is from Jamaica and so, like, when I go there, it feels actually like Wanam because everybody is people talk to you constantly for and they don't know you. Right? And they pause and visit and chat and you share meals and it just feels so easy and that isn't how we, that's not what our Western world looks like here. And so there's a deep sense of social isolation and loneliness that is in all of us. And, this is just one small act to try and see if there is gives people hope that maybe they matter and that you have something to bring to the world.
Mahara Wayman [00:13:28]:
Wow. So first off, yes, Jamaicans are like that. I am Jamaican. I don't know.
Hayley Sallis [00:13:32]:
Oh, are you? Oh, I didn't know that.
Mahara Wayman [00:13:33]:
Where are you from? Kingston.
Hayley Sallis [00:13:36]:
Kingston. Oh, my partner's from Spanish Town.
Mahara Wayman [00:13:39]:
Oh oh my god. It is a small world. Okay? Serious small world. But, really, there's so much I I see it with in the work that I do with my it's this desire to feel connected, this desire to feel heard. And to your point, most people don't wanna be fixed. They just wanna tell their story. Like, oh my god. I had the worst fucking day.
Mahara Wayman [00:14:02]:
Just wait till I hit wait till you hear what I you know, what happened to me. And often, I've even had my children say to me, I didn't ask you to fix it, mom. I just went. Yeah. In fact, my youngest I get spanked from my youngest figuratively, fairly regularly. Not quite as much as in the past because she's she's so good at at calling me out, but also I'm getting better at being a mom. Right. Really beautiful, this willingness for a group of people to say, we are willing to stand in discomfort if it's gonna be if it's gonna make a difference in your world.
Mahara Wayman [00:14:37]:
What's been the biggest thing that you've learned about yourself in this in the last few years working with Solas?
Hayley Sallis [00:14:47]:
I've had so much learning. I have a circle of really talented people that support this role that I am and is as a steward. I have, like, some of the smartest women you'll ever meet and incredible women that are have made it their lifelong work to do prototypes, but also around social change and justice. And so, I'm not, I'm not a lifelong student. That's just not how I I not a classroom gal. Right? I'm like, but if you tell me something or if I can learn from you, like, I will take it. I love it. Like, I love being able to exploit other people's really lots of money that they've spent and all their degrees and be like, so tell me more about what you learned, and then apply it.
Hayley Sallis [00:15:38]:
Right? And so I've learned so much. If if I like, the word like, some words that I'm just, like, I've never even knew what that meant, like segmentation and ethnography, and, like, how to do a like, I do some really cool shit that I never in a 1000000 years thought I would be immersed in because I'm doing social design, because everything that we do with SOLAS is considered learning, and so we never stop. So it's not programmatized. It's like we respond to the community and what the community needs look like. So every time we run a cohort, I'm out, like, doing ethnography with people in the trenches, trying to learn and then taking back all the learnings, doing segmentation, doing planning. And if anybody told me that I would be doing that 10 years ago, I would laugh at them. I was like, that's ridiculous. Like, I'm a doer.
Hayley Sallis [00:16:32]:
Like, I I'm not the think tank. I'm the do tank. Tell me what to do, and I'll do it. Okay. I'm not think I
Mahara Wayman [00:16:38]:
I'm jumping in here, though. So that's what you're learning all these outside things. Yeah. But what have you learned about you?
Hayley Sallis [00:16:45]:
Okay. Yeah. Sorry. K. Thank you. Did I belong here? I I've always had this, deep sense of, what is it when you don't feel like you belong? That that you're, like, not smart enough? I don't
Mahara Wayman [00:17:03]:
the An outsider? Not enough?
Hayley Sallis [00:17:05]:
Well, yeah. It's like you're, imposter syndrome. Like, that in some way I'm not qualified to do this type of stuff. Right? And that there must be a man that could do it better. Right? And so I feel like I I'm in the room now. I feel like I'm part of it and have influence over some decisions and how community that some acts in the community can actually do make change. And even if it's small change, even if it's individual. So I guess my confidence being able to, like, speak to something that I feel really passionate about, that shifted.
Hayley Sallis [00:17:47]:
I always get anxious. I'm the type of I mean, I cry all the time. Like, someone asked me a question because I feel I'm I'm so passionate that I cry about it. Right? And then I learned that it's okay. It's okay that, like, you love something so much that it makes you weak. That's okay. So I would say that mostly just like self exploration, like being able to actualize who I am completely. And sometimes, apologetically, sometimes not so much because I'm not for everybody and that's okay too.
Mahara Wayman [00:18:26]:
So, honestly, you have just described being badass. Yeah. Recognition of self. Yeah. And I say it all the time with with my guests is, honestly, all you need to do to be badass, put your hand on your heart and say I matter. Yeah. That's the beginning conversation for everything that comes after that. But it's interesting that so many of us are finding this, quote, badassery later in life rather than when, you know, figuring our our shit out as teenagers.
Mahara Wayman [00:18:56]:
Right? I mean, since we've gone through you know, I'm almost 6 I'm
Hayley Sallis [00:18:59]:
4 I'm gonna be 49, and I'm just, like, I still feel insecure, but, wow, this is good.
Mahara Wayman [00:19:07]:
Well and the thing is that it's it's okay. Like, it's okay to feel insecure. It's okay to feel all of these things. It doesn't make it true. You know?
Hayley Sallis [00:19:16]:
Feel it and it can be I feel this and I actually feel really excited or scared, but also smart or yeah.
Mahara Wayman [00:19:26]:
I think one of the biggest challenges that I well, I know one of the biggest challenges that I've seen with my clients and even in my own life was I bought into the bullshit that life was all or nothing. You either win it or you're a loser. Right? I think it's such a horrible, horrible attitude to have. And what I'm learning now with Grace, hopefully with Grace, is that I can be this Anne. Life is about this and that. It's not it doesn't have to be just black and white because, really, life isn't black and white. Okay. I wanna go back to your childhood.
Mahara Wayman [00:19:58]:
Yeah. And tell us a little bit about what you were up to as a teenager in this tiny little town.
Hayley Sallis [00:20:06]:
All the bad things.
Mahara Wayman [00:20:07]:
I was gonna say, if you can share it
Hayley Sallis [00:20:09]:
Yeah. No. I I also I would just I just actually went to a funeral for one of my teenage friends, and 2 of my girlfriends came and spent the night here, and we giggled all night about, like, the amount of terrible things we did. Terrible. Like, just and I just think, wow, the police in the small town were so generous. Because, I mean, it it like, I mean, the the police know would have never tolerated the kinds of bullshit that I did. But, yeah, I mean, I was a small town girl. Parties, backroading, all the stuff, just had so much fun, careless, had no self awareness.
Hayley Sallis [00:20:55]:
I would say that I was probably going on a path that would be really destructive for sure. Like, when I look at some of my peers and where they are, I'm like, oh, see? I'm like and, like, I think the the most badass thing I did was leave. And, like, leave because I knew that it was what was best. And it was like there's something happened to me. Well, I hadn't like, when I was pregnant with Kennedy, I had a very spiritual experience that actually would blow your fucking mind but it's wild. And so when I had that experience, something shifted in me. She was born and I like, my whole world just went into this, like, vision of, like, all that matters is that this little person thrives and is loved. And I knew that the only way that that was gonna happen is if I was far away from the world, my parents, everything.
Hayley Sallis [00:21:53]:
Like, I just needed to, in some way, get my own feet. And, I moved to Edmonton without any my one girlfriend was here. Thank goodness for her. And yeah. And the struggle got real and real really fast and and her and I survived so much together, like, just as a little person. She's, you know, she's gonna be 30, but I think, she was a gift. She just shifted, all of my motivation to just be, a better person. And it wasn't that I was a bad person.
Hayley Sallis [00:22:31]:
I just wasn't I wasn't treasured the way I needed to be in in when when I think about, like, my parents and where they were at. They were going through their own, like, marriage breakup and, I had a you know, just so many things. And so their energy wasn't in their kids.
Mahara Wayman [00:22:54]:
Where so I gotta jump in here and and Yeah. The way that you describe it, all I can think is, how the hell did you find the the whatever, the wherewithal to make such a courageous decision? Like, if you have spent
Hayley Sallis [00:23:10]:
I I there was a woman. I was a social worker. I went to a career development center, and I said I don't know what to do. I have this baby. She's 6 months old and I wanna go to school. I don't know what to do. And she sat with me and I remember exactly what she looks like in my head. I don't remember her name.
Hayley Sallis [00:23:32]:
And she just said the right things and was so motivating and helped me fill out the applications for, this a a guy who's went to child and youth care at. And she was just helpful. And then it all just happened. And I remember I went to an interview at Grant MacEwan. I had to come down for a weekend to see if I would be fit for the program because for social work type stuff, they do interviews. And there was one professor, I remember later in the year, she came up to me and she said, nobody wanted to yeah. Like yeah. Like, I was able to get the daycare in the university and I was I didn't go to school to go to school.
Hayley Sallis [00:24:27]:
I literally went to school to grow up and be surrounded by really strong influences. And to, like, see my daughter be parented, I was like, she was in the best daycare and to watch the staff, how they parented her, like, I learned how to be a mom by witnessing women, really strong women, parent my daughter. It was just all exactly what needed to happen. There was no accident. It when you think about the divinity and, like, exactly where you're supposed to be, that's what happened.
Mahara Wayman [00:24:57]:
And Yeah. That experience that you just described sounds an awful like like what an awful lot like what you are working to recreate today 20 years later, 29 years. Yes. Oh, yeah.
Hayley Sallis [00:25:08]:
Because I never thought of it that way.
Mahara Wayman [00:25:09]:
That's true. Here. Right? I think. Yeah. Yeah.
Hayley Sallis [00:25:12]:
That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Right? Yeah.
Mahara Wayman [00:25:14]:
And acceptance and being present and being open another aspect, I think, of being a badass is is recognizing that you don't know everything, and it is okay to ask for help. Just
Hayley Sallis [00:25:28]:
I was a mess, and I I knew that I didn't have a home life that was gonna be able to do that for me. And it wasn't like there were shortcomings. Like, my mom was the most amazing mom. Right? My dad, they were amazing. But just what I needed wasn't gonna come from them. Wow.
Mahara Wayman [00:25:50]:
I'm guessing here. But do they know that that was an impetus for your for you leaving? Was the recognition that they couldn't give you what you needed? I don't know.
Hayley Sallis [00:25:59]:
I don't know if, I know that they knew like, I was a different kid. Right? Like, I I needed to shine in every space. Like, so in elementary, I was like, how do I stand out in this crowd? Like, you have the same students from kindergarten to grade 9. There's 5 of us, and we're just, like, looking at each other every day, and I'm, like, I need to make this some razzle fucking dazzle. So I did everything to try and stand out in the crowd. And I, you know and so I the small the town was too small for me, and I know that they knew that. I just am not a small town girl. But do I love it? And does it feel like home? Yes.
Hayley Sallis [00:26:38]:
Do I belong there? No. Not live there but do I is is it where my roots are? Am I, like, do I yeah. Yes. But I I am too big for that.
Mahara Wayman [00:26:50]:
Was that a difficult thing for you to actually accept this idea of your that it's okay that you are too big for something?
Hayley Sallis [00:27:00]:
Mhmm. I knew that I like to be anonymous a bit because I'm, because I'm disruptive, Just naturally in every way. Like I I I always say that, you know, if I I haven't really been I think I've only been fired once in my life over the last 16, and I worked at a bingo hall, and I deserve to be fired. But in every other job I've ever had, I'm always like, I'm gonna get fired today for this because I am definitely disruptive. And in and I think in a delightful way, but, maybe others might not think that. And so and I'm deceptive in my and and I'm very disruptive in my own family of origin. So I don't placate in my family. And so when something doesn't feel right, I speak it.
Hayley Sallis [00:27:46]:
And so my nieces, who I'm very close to, we were at a there was a family reunion a couple years ago and they they got a jar and it was called the hot topic jar and then they all looked at me. Like, so if you if you've you had to pay in the jar, if you engaged in hot topics because they knew I was gonna be in a problem because I
Mahara Wayman [00:28:06]:
Okay. How how is that how is that trait served you as you live out your purpose today?
Hayley Sallis [00:28:15]:
The only you learn. So if you are silent in moments when someone should speak, there's no learning or opportunity for learning or opportunity for others to learn or for yourself. Right? So if I'm disruptive and then I get clarity and I feel comfortable about going forward, that's great. Right? You need to listen more. And and I do I need to listen more in a lot of cases? Yes. And I think I've learned that over the years. But when it comes to justice and justice doing, you can't do it silently. And that's so uncomfortable.
Hayley Sallis [00:28:58]:
Like, when you talk about this to be uncomfortable, like, are you unsafe or are you uncomfortable? Working in encampments this summer, like, this narrative that our police and our our government, how they express, how they the narrative that they use to describe people who are unhoused, actually leads to this sense of unsafeness around people. And so my question is, are you unsafe or do you feel uncomfortable and unsure? And if it's uncomfortable and unsure, we can actually do some learning and then it might change. Right? And so
Mahara Wayman [00:29:42]:
But what a great call out the difference between unsafe and unsure and uncomfortable. Then it goes back to we just weren't we haven't been taught that language. We haven't been given permission to explore it. And I'm I've I've shared this on the show before. There was a time when my my kids I've got 2 girls. They when, I guess, they were really into texting, and they would speak to me the way that they text their friends, and I lost my shit. I'm like, I'm not your dude. I'm sorry.
Mahara Wayman [00:30:10]:
What did you call me? Dude. LOL. I'm like, I'm sorry. You speak English. Could you speak English to your mother? It and we laugh about it now, but I I still see it. Even even with myself sometimes, I struggle to find the word
Hayley Sallis [00:30:26]:
to express
Mahara Wayman [00:30:27]:
how I'm feeling. I mean, not really that much anymore because I'm a writer. I I've got you know, I'll my I remember my mom telling me to go check the dictionary if I didn't understand what she was saying to her. Right? She was so appalled that I pretended I didn't understand. She goes, go look at the dictionary. Yeah. Part of the challenge for for a lot of us, especially as we are both in fields where we want to help and make a difference, is sometimes Mhmm. What I speak is not what they hear because they just don't words.
Mahara Wayman [00:30:53]:
And as a coach, for me, I have to quickly instant nano in a nanosecond reach like, pivot and fig what words will they connect with. And I how can I get them to ex and and not in a not in a condescending manner, a way that they feel safe and heard and listened to? But also by time they leave the conversation that they feel empowered with, even if it's one new word or just one new standing about themselves. Right? And I think that's to your point, I think okay. I'm not gonna go down the political path, but I will say that I think our government has done a really piss poor job of giving us permission to understand the basic needs of our houseless. And we we don't talk about it because it's uncomfortable, and it make people
Hayley Sallis [00:31:43]:
And that and that their basic needs, like, that we actually have to look beyond basic needs.
Mahara Wayman [00:31:47]:
Yeah.
Hayley Sallis [00:31:48]:
The only antidote to this what's happening in our community and in our world, really, of this displaced displacing people so quickly is love and is understanding and is learning. Right? And that doesn't come from just food security and shelter. It doesn't.
Mahara Wayman [00:32:08]:
So have you
Hayley Sallis [00:32:09]:
It's so much more.
Mahara Wayman [00:32:10]:
Have you found in your work? It's a requirement. It works best if they come side by side. Do you want one before the other? Do we need to
Hayley Sallis [00:32:20]:
It's okay to have it it it should be altogether. Like, we can't be we can't be like, let's worry about the loss of your daughter later. We just need to get you a house. It doesn't work like that.
Mahara Wayman [00:32:36]:
So is this an example of when multitasking is necessary? And I the
Hayley Sallis [00:32:42]:
I don't know if multitasking is ever necessary because I actually read about it, and I just think it's probably really I
Mahara Wayman [00:32:46]:
didn't like the word multitask. It's not a task to address somebody's needs, emotional needs. But it's Yeah. It's it's like a how do I wanna say this? It's like a an acknowledgment, an awareness that this is what is?
Hayley Sallis [00:33:04]:
This is a full person. It's a full person. So what you see in front of you is very obvious. You can see where there's the where where they're lacking. Right? It's clear. Housing, maybe food security, access to hygiene and things like that. But what's the spirit and what our soul needs, like, those like, that that's just as important. And they're not gonna show you that because how why do you deserve it? Right? And so if we imagine, like, we look at our children as whole people and know that they need all sorts of things to grow and be, you know, have a sense of purpose and, connection to the world and that goes for everybody.
Hayley Sallis [00:33:53]:
And how we're failing society is that we unless you're normal and, like, we would be considered normal. Right? So when we think about, you know, people with developmental disabilities, people who are houseless, we've created this society that actually it it it's almost like it's disgusting that we don't really wanna see it. And we and there has to be a system and professionals to fix it. So if you ask somebody, let's say, when someone that I maybe I would have encountered, I would say, so who's in your life? Who are the most important people in your life? Oh, I have a housing worker. I have my social worker here, and I have this. And I'm like, but who's the unpaid people that care about you? Mhmm. Imagine if your world that you couldn't tell me about the people in your life that cared about you, that weren't being paid to care about you.
Mahara Wayman [00:34:56]:
Katie, that is absolutely heartbreaking when you phrase it like that.
Hayley Sallis [00:35:01]:
Yeah. So It is heartbreaking.
Mahara Wayman [00:35:04]:
Do they when you first encounter so walk us through what your typical day looks like because this is all great conversation between, you know, 2 2 very happy connected people in different well, actually, we're kind of in
Hayley Sallis [00:35:18]:
Privileged. Yeah. Very present.
Mahara Wayman [00:35:20]:
But what's your day look like? Mostly,
Hayley Sallis [00:35:24]:
like, my tie I I we usually just like I mean, my with Solas, I've been in different spaces in the prototype. So this summer was mostly in encampments. And so it was a lot of bush, honestly. I was in the trenches.
Mahara Wayman [00:35:39]:
I want you to explain encampments because it's a term that we Canada.
Hayley Sallis [00:35:42]:
Okay. Do you give her overview? Yeah. So it's peep yeah. For sure. So it's people who are unhoused but choose to not use services like shelters, as a form of, like, respite from their housing situation. And so they choose to sleep in spaces where it could be on street corners or in our river valley or in, like, kind of secluded areas. And so and for very good reasons, like we said, with this idea of safety, unsafe for some people for some people, shelters are very unsafe. And and it doesn't make sense for them to stay there.
Hayley Sallis [00:36:20]:
And so they find something different that works for their own values and what's important to them. And so sometimes, it's usually a lot of people who are quite self sufficient and like to look after themselves and like to maybe be communal, like, share space with other people, have neighbors, things like that. Like, that's important. And so you don't really get that in a shelter space, how our shelters work nowadays. And so that's an encampment. People who live outside and use nature as a space or outside as a way to kinda sustain them their housing. And so my role in the summer is to spend time with I I hire, a bunch of people and we call them loss tenders and they are a collective of really creative people who have used a creative or somatic or embodiment practice as a form of healing for themselves and they wanna share it with somebody else. So we pay them to do the onboarding and the training around grief and loss but their relationships are intended to just be of their own decision and how they want them to play out.
Hayley Sallis [00:37:28]:
So typically, we would just, you know, we might see an encampment and we would, you know, introduce ourselves. Hi. My name is Haley. Is anybody home? Just like you would do as a neighbor. And see if someone would be willing to, like, invite you in. And then we tell them about this outrageous idea that we are just coming to be with you and share time and maybe do some art or music or poetry or whatever and see if they have a creative practice and then we share the time collectively cocreating moments with each other. And we are explicit that it is around grief and loss but that's not the intention that we expect people to in some way have to feel like they have to talk to about grief and loss. We really know that something like that is sacred and so the idea of using art or creative practices around with the intention and thought around, grief is that in some way we can take it out of our body a bit.
Hayley Sallis [00:38:32]:
Right? Because that's what causes us so much distress is that it's there's no way for it to move through us. And so we're using our practice and creative practice as a way to move the trauma through us. And when we think about grief and loss, it's not just bereavement when we think about the person, but it could be, you know, grieving my belongings, my home, my language, my connections, my relationships, my anything. Right? And so we it doesn't need to be, this well, I guess, like, all grief is grief. All loss is loss. And all of it is worth marking and being with if it matters to the person. And so Yeah. So a lot of time spent singing really great music around campfires with people, learning things, learning about ritual.
Hayley Sallis [00:39:24]:
Everything is marked in ritual also. So solos because we know that our relationships are temporary that maybe we won't we might not see that person tomorrow because their camp has been dismantled. And so everything we do, we mark with ritual. So we begin with ritual. We spend time together and we end with ritual. So that we always have a container for that person, and in some way, keep us all in, whole, if that makes sense.
Mahara Wayman [00:39:54]:
Yeah. It's incredibly beautiful. What's the response been?
Hayley Sallis [00:39:57]:
It's yeah. We've I mean, it's beautiful. And sadly when you say, like, I I feel like all of our the sharers that we've been able to spend time with over the years, the relationships with people have been lasting and have felt good mutually. It's precarious that the value of something like this is, not really recognized and so the city has been our funder, for most of it. We've had a little kind of spurts of money from different types of grants. But I think that's been the hardest is to be able to, in some way, have a system like the city or, people who are big money people recognize that we need something outside of professionals. That we actually do need community care and that we do in some way need to give roles back to community that they long for, but don't feel like they're qualified for. Right? There's so many people that feel like, well, I can't do that because I wouldn't know how.
Hayley Sallis [00:41:01]:
I'm not qualified to help somebody. And so what we do is we take that away and say, but tell me, like, tell me about yourself. Tell me, have you law have you experienced grief and loss? Like, how like, what what's helped you? Like, everybody, is qualified if they have a desire to be caring. We just don't carve it out. We don't find places for regular people to care. We the expectations on qualifications and initials behind your name stop us from allowing, natural helpers in our community show up. We think that the only way people should show up is by giving a bagged lunch and a backpack. Like, come on.
Hayley Sallis [00:41:45]:
Like, there's so many beautiful people and they just don't know how. And we don't we don't, figure out how and Solas is about learning how to do that.
Mahara Wayman [00:41:56]:
Is it a forerunner in in Canada, or is this is this, you mentioned prototype earlier. Is this something that started here, and is it elsewhere right now?
Hayley Sallis [00:42:07]:
Oh, we it literally was created through, I don't know if you remember a few years ago when, when they did the encampment, it was kind of down in the river by, yeah. And it was a big problem. The whole city was really upset about it. Yeah. So I did, with one of my really good friends, James Lesser, we did ethnography down there, asking about what what would what would be something that they needed in their lives? What was something that was they didn't feel like they were getting cared for? So we had a few different ideas and what we learned from all of, like, hundreds of people we interviewed is that feeling respected, having, a sense of purpose in their life, having access to care for unresolved trauma and grief was so important. Access to culture. And so, because of my end of life care work that I did, which was also the best thing ever because I got to work with people who were dying and then also got to be my full self. So I got to really love people whereas, like, in a community center, you know, it's maybe not, like, it's maybe not celebrated when you're, like, hugging people and massaging people, but I was able to just, like, really look after people who are dying and, like, fully love them.
Hayley Sallis [00:43:23]:
And so, the prototype actually was called the morning midwife for a little bit but people thought it was a bit dark. And it was really kind of after this me in this idea of, like, caring for somebody fully. And then it shift into, using creative arts and things like that like other people to be able to do really cool work. And so, yeah, we designed the whole thing. Like, it's when I tell you the amount of, energy and love that went into it from, like, the social design part of it and the, like, built that back end stuff that I can't do. Having, like, the it would it's a called In With Ford. They're from they're Vancouver based. You should, yeah, you should Google them.
Hayley Sallis [00:44:07]:
Sarah is one of the leads there, and, yeah. Like, they do some incredible work. And so, yeah, with them and me being here, we just, tested this idea to see if it would land and it did. And then we've been able to continue it and we'll be doing it again this summer. So yeah. And it's the the hope is that it's always a prototype that we never actually think we've got it. That we as soon as we programatize something, it in some way means that we are gonna leave people out. And so the hope is that soul loss as a network can spread and that, with the right people in the network that we can in some way self be self sustaining.
Hayley Sallis [00:44:49]:
We're not there yet. We're very fresh, very new, but we have a lot of beautiful people that have, put a lot of heart into this.
Mahara Wayman [00:44:57]:
If anybody wants to anyone listening to know more about what you do or if they are local, how they can be part of what you do, how how do they go about that? How how do they reach out to
Hayley Sallis [00:45:12]:
you? Yeah. They can reach out to me at SOLOS, so on the website or I work at Reach Edmonton. They wonderfully let me spread my wings and do this work and, so, yeah, just look for [email protected] and they can talk to me. We do learning days so we want to be able to, in some way, help with how we view, community. And so even from when it comes to, like, hiring people, like, our hiring process is something you would never experience. Like, it is a matchmaking experience. We are just looking for like minded. We don't ask for CDs or resumes.
Hayley Sallis [00:45:57]:
We ask for, who you are as a person. When we sit down and interview somebody, they know every question we're going to ask. They lead the conversation. We do not. That every all of our onboarding, it takes 3 days of, like, really beautiful engagement and experiences. It's we we are this is an act of decolonization. This is an act of repair, for sure. And, I feel like we're doing it.
Hayley Sallis [00:46:31]:
And the only way the only reason I can speak to that is because when I have indigenous like, this last season, we had our cohort was made up of half indigenous loss tenders. And when I did the evaluation, like, because I want this to be I like, my hope is to make this a good experience for somebody else who doesn't look like me and doesn't have the privileges I have and that feels cared for to be in a different type of role. And so I think that we're there. I think we're doing a really good job and that we, aren't done yet, but that I really want it to feel good. I want this experience to feel good and it has. So I'm happy about that.
Mahara Wayman [00:47:14]:
I can hear the emotion coming through and, you know, I've got goosebumps. Of course, you can't tell because I'm wearing my Knuck jersey, but all joking aside, I just wanna I just wanna thank you for being, number 1, being so outrageously badass and energized. But number 2, having the courage to make your way in a way that we haven't seen before and stand up for the people that don't have a voice. It is, you know, it is a reflection of our society. We are only as good as how we treat our weakest, less or or or less fortunate. So I say thank you for for not only having the courage to do this, but to keep doing it. Right? And to keep doing it with with enthuse
Hayley Sallis [00:47:56]:
But some days, I'm just like
Mahara Wayman [00:47:58]:
Of course.
Hayley Sallis [00:47:59]:
Give me your
Mahara Wayman [00:48:00]:
money.
Hayley Sallis [00:48:00]:
Just give me all the money. Let me do Yeah.
Mahara Wayman [00:48:03]:
What strikes what I'm what I'm so struck with is the not only is it ingenious. Right? I mean, it's ingenious to come at it from this angle. Shows your badassery, but, also, it is a type of thing that I can see that it just and so on and so on and so on. Like, the repercussions are so huge.
Hayley Sallis [00:48:21]:
It's just we call it rhizome theory. This idea that if you imagine mushrooms, right, and you think about their role in a forest, that like, a forest wouldn't be a forest without them. Without their spores shifting, changing minds of the forest about how we grow and how we flourish. And so if you imagine that if we're always dependent on structures and systems to fix us, then we're lost. Like, it has to come somewhere else. Right? And so, yeah, we consider ourselves mushrooms.
Mahara Wayman [00:49:01]:
So beautiful. Is there anything that you'd like to share with our audience about your personal journey to badassery? Is there anything that you do on a regular basis, for example, to sort of help you feel more, you know, centered, whatever, in in your world? I sometimes like to end with tips for the audience.
Hayley Sallis [00:49:18]:
Yeah. I would say that I yeah. Like, to like, humility and to always share spaces with people who are smarter than you. And then I really appreciate the learning that I get from everybody and that, like, and that means, like, the people that are usually silenced. And so my one my one challenge for people is that if you when you experience people that feel a little bit different than yourself or that you might be quick to say you feel unsafe around. I always say that it's really easy to, like, dismiss somebody or to, like, fiscally kind of, you know, offer to, you know, buy a coffee or what have you. I I guess what I would say is, like, can you get to know your houseless neighbor in some way? Like, you know, share your name, treat somebody, maybe take the risk and sit in the discomfort of a discomfort discomfort like, a discomfort an uncomfortable situation and see if you get through it. And then the more that you get through those moments, you might actually see the value of those relationships and how rich they can be.
Hayley Sallis [00:50:34]:
And so, yeah, I would say that that's what always keeps me, demonstrating relationship in community and so if there's someone in a lineup, always greeting that person, always acknowledging people that are invisible in most spaces. And so doing those types of things is an act of, love and for our community. So if there's ways that you can find moments That's beautiful. Suggest that.
Mahara Wayman [00:51:06]:
That's beautiful. Haley, I have just loved this conversation. I think we're gonna have to do this again because I wanna know more about the first job you got fired from. Serious. But all joking aside, guys, check the show notes. And, you know, a challenge from from both of us is ask yourself when you are feeling this uncomfortable in with what you see around you, get curious about why. What is it about this situation that strikes according you? Whether the discomfort is fear, anger, disillusionment, disappointment, frustration, and just get curious because as a as a society, we cannot move forward to our communal greatness if we are not willing to ask difficult questions of ourselves and sit in the discomfort of being in a community like we are. My name is Mahara.
Mahara Wayman [00:51:57]:
This has been the art of badassery. Haley, thank you so much. We'll see you next week on the art of badassery. Take care. Thanks, Haley.
Hayley Sallis [00:52:04]:
Thank you.
Mahara Wayman [00:52:10]:
Thanks for tuning in to another badass episode. Your support means the world to me. So if you enjoyed what you heard today, don't forget to like, share, and rate the episode on your favorite podcast platform. Your feedback keeps the badassery flowing. And, hey, if you're ready to unleash your inner badass and conquer whatever life throws your way, why not book a complimentary bad ass breakthrough session? Just click the link in the show notes to schedule your session, and let's kick some serious butt together. Until next time, stay fearless, stay fabulous, and of course, stay bad ass. This is Mahara signing off.
